How Much Bass is Enough

[Kingrex]

@DasguteOhr
I get what your trying to do. Its an easy try. I could even use the Dayton plate amp I have. Its mono out, but its only the bottom end. It would show me if the 10" coax is up to the task.

I'm not sure the crossover you have a close up of is correct. I will take pictures of mine later today.

 

[mtemur]

I think any speaker that goes down to 30Hz is good enough. The question, in my opinion, is not about how much bass there is, but how fast it is. It should be extremely quick with impact—you should feel it in your stomach, starting and stopping effortlessly without sounding muddy or overwhelming.

If you can clearly follow the electric bass and low octaves of the Fender Rhodes together on funk or psychedelic tracks, and it makes you tap your feet, I’d say that’s good enough. A good example would be CTI releases.

That said, despite the technical facts, I’ve always enjoyed the bass of well-designed and well-built tube amps over solid-state, and vinyl over digital.

 

[Kingrex]

Scott of Found Music who made my amp would make me a more affordable PP that could run my woofer. I wonder if I can seperate my digital controls from the internal class D amp. Or do I have to purchase a stand alone active crossover.

 

[Alrainbow]

Rex that guy k

@DasguteOhr
I get what your trying to do. Its an easy try. I could even use the Dayton plate amp I have. Its mono out, but its only the bottom end. It would show me if the 10" coax is up to the task.

I'm not sure the crossover you have a close up of is correct. I will take pictures of mine later today.

Rex that man and a
Couple of others on this thread are true pros
just try what he says I’m sure you will learn something on how better they get
at a past show they was a room with a similar style speaker
Tiny little tube amp and big side panels
can’t say best if show but was a pretty good sound

 

[Alrainbow]

I think any speaker that goes down to 30Hz is good enough. The question, in my opinion, is not about how much bass there is, but how fast it is. It should be extremely quick with impact—you should feel it in your stomach, starting and stopping effortlessly without sounding muddy or overwhelming.

If you can clearly follow the electric bass and low octaves of the Fender Rhodes together on funk or psychedelic tracks, and it makes you tap your feet, I’d say that’s good enough. A good example would be CTI releases.

That said, despite the technical facts, I’ve always enjoyed the bass of well-designed and well-built tube amps over solid-state, and vinyl over digital.

I agree but you need to have enough acoustic energy at lower frequencies
Many drivers play low but at went energy level ?? You need to fill your room to sound full.

 

[DasguteOhr]

I agree but you need to have enough acoustic energy at lower frequencies
Many drivers play low but at went energy level ?? You need to fill your room to sound full.

Exactly! Bass is all about the volume of air being moved. A large diaphragm surface is therefore always advantageous; it rarely feels overloaded (large driver excursion results in high distortion). An open baffle is an energy-guzzling system in the bass. You can either force a smaller bass driver with active bass equalization below its resonant frequency, or you can use sufficient surface area—for example, multiple 12" or larger drivers—to achieve fast, clean bass. The right drivers are not those with strong magnets or low QTS(, which have a sharp drop in level at their lower resonant frequency (fs)in open baffle. Anything below 0.7 is completely unsuitable for open baffles.
The baffle should be 1m e.g side wings, which means that the sound should have to travel 1m to reach the phase-shifted rear sound of the driver. Then it only reaches 25-30hz with full sound pressure, depending on the driver used.

This woofer is a pefect exsample for openbaffle

Dipole15 - Open Baffle Applications - Acoustic Elegance woofer

Dipole15 woofers are designed for open baffle bass applications. Featuring the Full Copper Faraday Sleeve (FCFS) for incredibly accurate reproduction.

aespeakers.com

 

[Lagonda]

The 15" woofer runs up to ~ 250hz 12db xover, the 10" mid driver from 250- 2khz 24db xover, horn tweeter 2khz- 20khz 12db xover
Just ran it through the computer, based on the component size and driver parameters. No guarantee or measurement.

So nothing limiting the sub frequencies downwards, running full range.

 

[Kingrex]

Its gonna take some Jerry Rig wiring. I will probably need 14 solid thhn to wire it up.

I will probably only use 2 woofer. Not all 4. I can parallel them in mono to the Dayton plate amp. They are 8 ohm drivers.

Not sure what reaistors I have in stock. I'm sure the 10" and tweeter are going to be out of balance. But its simply a test.

Its almost 90* here today. My room has an AC. But its a loud window unit. I don't have much time to fiddle around.

The contractor flooded 2 rooms today. Had to deal with that. Not real bad. The water was off. But the lines drained when they were cut. I had to climb under the house and set a couple fans. I then installed the 2 crawl space vent fans I had purchased. I have decent airflow going through the space. The hot, dry weather helps.

 

[Kingrex]

Rex that guy k

Rex that man and a
Couple of others on this thread are true pros
just try what he says I’m sure you will learn something on how better they get
at a past show they was a room with a similar style speaker
Tiny little tube amp and big side panels
can’t say best if show but was a pretty good sound

The side panel is the low hanging fruit.

@DasguteOhr
Do I need to do the top and bottom of the frames with the plates?

 

[morricab]

Quick question, did your Black Shadow have a fuller or leaner bass than the darTZeel?

 

[thedudeabides]

I have heard a lot of people say you shouldn't hear your subs. You only notice them when you turn them off.

Rex

That is the serious music listener's consensus because it is true. The challenge, of course, is proper integration to realize an optimum subjective musical listening experience so all aspects are in balance. Done improperly, it negatively impacts everything, top to bottom. I guess the question is why would one want to do otherwise?

 

[DasguteOhr]

The side panel is the low hanging fruit.

@DasguteOhr
Do I need to do the top and bottom of the frames with the plates?

I would start like this,Maybe it's enough to fill the sound pressure drop from 30-45 Hz. Listen and measure, otherwise you'll probably have to make the entire height side wings.
The baffle ~ 0.5m + each side 0.3m wings that enough mostly (H 62× D 30 cm)

 

[thedudeabides]

Can bass in a stereo system sound natural if it doesn't reproduce the weight and impact of what you hear in the concert hall?

For me both quality and quantity matter.

Obvious questions. What hall? What conductor? What musical piece? What seat? What personal biases? In my view, it all matters. And the answer will be different for each individual.

 

[Kingrex]

Quick question, did your Black Shadow have a fuller or leaner bass than the darTZeel?

I still have the Audion Black Shadow 845 SET.
Good question. The Black Shadow has good bass. I would say the Dartzeel was more even across the frequency spectrum. The BS might have a mid bass hump. The Dartzeel is much more quiet. The BS has a nice life. Its more vibrant.

As for bass reinforcement and foundation? Hard to say. I don't remember the Dartzeel having a particular strong grip or authority. It was more liquid and flowing. It did not sag or loose control. But it never said, here I am.
The Black Shadow has pretty good natural detail. But my amp is a little raw. Not in a bad way. Its less composed. Its not trying to disappear like the Dartzeel. Its more trying to put on a show. The Black Shadow definitely has more notable distortion. Less detail. I don't have the Dartzeel anymore, but compared to my Blade KT88 PP, its obvious all the fine nuances the Black Shadow is missing. Its rounded, fleshed out and easy to listen too. But that warmth and color comes at a cost.

 

[Holmz]

At some point the speakers matter as well.
It is sort of against the “synergy” argument to say otherwise.
So to be spruiking one particular amp seems a bit misleading.

The speakers often have a passive XO in them.
Which makes a monkey grip onto the drivers, really be only a monkey grip on the wire.

The driver is hanging off of a spring and mass, so the driver is seeing something that is not exactly a monkey grip dues to the inductors and capacitors in the chain.
If it was “not so”, then the inductors and capacitors would not really matter at all.

Take the same speaker (drivers and box) and replace the passive-XO with an active-XO and things sometimes change even though the filter order and frequencies stay the same.

 

[Kingrex]

At some point the speakers matter as well.
It is sort of against the “synergy” argument to say otherwise.
So to be spruiking one particular amp seems a bit misleading.

The speakers often have a passive XO in them.
Which makes a monkey grip onto the drivers, really be only a monkey grip on the wire.

The driver is hanging off of a spring and mass, so the driver is seeing something that is not exactly a monkey grip dues to the inductors and capacitors in the chain.
If it was “not so”, then the inductors and capacitors would not really matter at all.

Take the same speaker (drivers and box) and replace the passive-XO with an active-XO and things sometimes change even though the filter order and frequencies stay the same.

If I could afford it, I would get a second set of amps and do as you say. Imagine Wilson or Magico owners having to purchase 3 sets of amps.

I accept DasguteOhr has a good concept. If I used my main Blade amp and direct coupled the amp to the coax and used the crossover for the tweeter. Then got a second Blade amp and active crossover and drove the woofers with it. I bet I could find astounding performance. Even if I stuck with a active analog crossover and crossed where they currently are, adding a second amp and filtering in the signal is most likeley a superior topology.

I am still pretty confident I would keep my horn loaded sub. The thing is glorious. I did a little tweaking tonigh. I lowered the cross point and went to a 12 db slope. I can't tell its playing until I unplug the signal cable and the body and lower support goes away. Then I plug ot back in and Aahhhh. Good enough I'm roasting myself in my room. Its been 98 degree. The roof is hot. The AC has to be off to play music. The heat is radiating into the room. Once the main remodel is done, I want to pull the drywall down on the roof of my listening room and use spray foam, then rock wool to block the heat.

 

[Kingrex]

I would start like this,Maybe it's enough to fill the sound pressure drop from 30-45 Hz. Listen and measure, otherwise you'll probably have to make the entire height side wings.View attachment 154563
The baffle ~ 0.5m + each side 0.3m wings that enough mostly (H 62× D 30 cm)

If I got a.second sub, I could place them on the outsode of each speaker and make them 1 boundary, then add wings inside.

 

[DasguteOhr]

If I could afford it, I would get a second set of amps and do as you say. Imagine Wilson or Magico owners having to purchase 3 sets of amps.

I accept DasguteOhr has a good concept. If I used my main Blade amp and direct coupled the amp to the coax and used the crossover for the tweeter. Then got a second Blade amp and active crossover and drove the woofers with it. I bet I could find astounding performance. Even if I stuck with a active analog crossover and crossed where they currently are, adding a second amp and filtering in the signal is most likeley a superior topology.

I am still pretty confident I would keep my horn loaded sub. The thing is glorious. I did a little tweaking tonigh. I lowered the cross point and went to a 12 db slope. I can't tell its playing until I unplug the signal cable and the body and lower support goes away. Then I plug ot back in and Aahhhh. Good enough I'm roasting myself in my room. Its been 98 degree. The roof is hot. The AC has to be off to play music. The heat is radiating into the room. Once the main remodel is done, I want to pull the drywall down on the roof of my listening room and use spray foam, then rock wool to block the heat.

I'd would try the cheaper Yamaha solution first; it costs $500. I'm not a fan of additional devices (active crossover) in the signal path. There are expensive solutions, and cheap ones that are really bad. They just create additional problems. I can only say that All in one device works better than some expensive things for bass filtering.
Good luck It's important that you try things out. It doesn't make you dumber, that's a fact. Simple is usually better, ask i will help.

 

[MarcelNL]

try extending the 'wings' (baffle) you need a baffle for wave form propagation IMHO in any speaker....(and you hear the lack of it in many speakers)

I recently added 20cm of 'wings' on my Trionor FLH (3 x 13" FR units per channel) and the difference it makes is ridiculous.....@ 2W of SET 'power'

 

[MarcelNL]

BTW; enough bass IMO is ensured by having enough cone surface area moving air....either by direct displacement or virtual displacement (horns with smaller drivers)