How Much Bass is Enough

[Tangram]

You’ll get loads of opinions and advice on subs. One thing most people agree on though is that two are better than one, so something to think about for the future.

I blow hot and cold with my subs but I’ve currently got them in the system with my open baffles, crossed over quite low (45 Hz) and with a steep slope of 24 db (I think I read somewhere a steep slope is good with open baffles). As others have said, you don’t want to be aware of them, but if you turn them off, you miss them because the sound loses some bottom end oomph (highly technical term). I too can barely hear them when the mains are off. But in fairness, a lot is recording dependent, and it’s not just EDM that blows your hair back. I find a lot of Sade’s music has more than enough bass without the subs, but then Daft Punk albums often benefit from the subs. I don’t listen to much classical at all so I can’t comment on bassoons and pipe organs, but with jazz, you know the subs are dialed in on my system when all the double bass notes are there and nicely articulated.

The great thing about subs is that they’re optional. I like having that option, and I’m lucky they integrate well with my mains. I suspect the same is true with your PAPs. Have fun experimenting and remember that the only thing that matters is that YOU like what they’re doing to YOUR sound.

 

[Ron Resnick]

There's no such thing as too much high-quality woofage -- unless it overloads the room.

 

[DasguteOhr]

He bought a horn subwoofer, so he could also use a 10" Beyma and install it in a BLD 2 horn. Put a 6dB filter in front of the horn tweeter at 5kHz with an L pad and adjust the volume of the tweeter, it will sound like this. A lot of options in the audio world.

 

[Lagonda]

How wide should the baffle be, or how deep the U. For my PAP?
A lot of people think the Trio 15 have plenty of bass. Some people with PAP prefer a 250 watt plus pass amp to drive them. Lots of SS power.

My perception was the Dartzeel and Atmasphere had a fuller, more rounded bass than my KT88 PP amp. They both reached the same overall depth of bass. About 50db and then rolled off hard.
The KT88 has a much more natural bass. And the KT88 is much faster bass. The leading edges and punch are more tights and fast. Like I said earlier, with the horn sub, the bass actually made me jump. I don't have the Dartzeel to test anymore, but I doubt it would do the same.

And it is sort of shocking how the overall power seems so much higher. All the way top to bottom of the frequency range. However, I don't think I would get Club style bass. That real deep, shake the room bass. That is a different type of bass. I did play some pop music with deep bass. What I did notice was interesting details in the bass that I never heard before. Like I could hear the synthesizer settings and more subtle affects they had programmed into it. I think a SS amp would give me more Club style bass. But a different speaker would also move the needle that way too. I am happy with the type and quantity of bass I am getting now.

Are you crossing over the bass in the main speakers ? I found oppen baffle to be a little sloppy if i don't.

 

[Kingrex]

Are you crossing over the bass in the main speakers ? I found oppen baffle to be a little sloppy if i don't.

I don't quite understand what you're asking? There is a crossover with my speaker. I believe the woofers are crossing somewhere around 600 to 800 hertz.

 

[Kingrex]

This is wo wonderful with the subs on.

 

[Kingrex]

There's no question that the sub sounds good, but the money could have been used for something else, like a passive crossover. I would only use the 12dB filter on the tweeter; the rest of the coax driver would run without the crossover. Perhaps you would have to lower the tweeter level (resistor lpad). Here's the frequency response of the Beyma 10" coax. Really good rolloff 10" midbass driver.View attachment 154525

Run it with your tube amplifier. Both bass drivers are active with the Yamaha studio power amplifier, 12dB filter/90Hz.View attachment 154524
I guarantee it will be better ...promise

I remember now having a conversation with ze'ev about this. Principal of PAP. He said the coax doesn't have enough to stand alone. The 2 x 15" woofers cross around 600 to 800 herzt and do a lot of midrange,midbass the coax can't do well on its own. That's why I never move forward with your suggestion of the Yamaha. I was unsure if I could get a PA processor that would cross over that high. And I didn't think blending solid state with tubes at such an audible frequency would work well. I do believe vertical biaming with two stereo amps would work well.

At the moment what i'm employing is extremely satisfying. I'm very pleased with the subwoofer. It blends extremely well. It has really only taken me three days to dial it in. All by ear.

I will try the wings. But it's going to take me some time to get around to it. This is my living room dining room today.

FWIW, I did move the sub to the rear wall. It does blend better. I have the mouth 7.5 feet from my chair. The main speakeds are also 7.5 feet to the chair.

 

[Kingrex]

Yamaha p3500s with 12db xover adjustable from 50hz-150hz

Its not biamping its active bass..is diffrent league

Is that your xover , a lot models of this speaker with different driver?View attachment 154526
P.S make good photo of that, in internet not good available

yes that is it. I can get some close ups of the values of the parts.

 

[dcathro]

Answering the tread topic, I think this comes down to expectations and what you are listening for.

I have ported 15" woofers that go down to 35hz and do not miss anything given the music that I mostly listen to.

I have a friend who has Voxativ full range (5" driver), and I find his system to be incredibly enjoyable and musical playing most music. His system (low powered SE triode) is tuned for maximum musicality (tone, texture & timing) in it's frequency range.

I understand Steve Williams position in not wanting subs with his Zellatons, as I don't want them either. I wouldn't turn down additional frequency extension as long as I don't have to give up something to get it, and you always do!

 

[Holmz]

There's no such thing as too much high-quality woofage -- unless it overloads the room.

I have most of 50% of the population that would argue against that from a WAF factor.
They like “Max Factor”, but only as beauty product line, and not in terms of numbers of subs.

 

[DasguteOhr]

yes that is it. I can get some close ups of the values of the parts.

Ok..try first the wings then you contact me if you want to try the other solution, here's a video showing the stacked corner horns as exsample.diffrent amps sound..sooo bad

 

[morricab]

On how many speakers have you activated the bass (no passive crossover)? Direct grip from the amp. This only works well below 100 Hz. A 10" coax is ideal for full-range use with a tube amp because it acts like a point source. The Beyma 10"+ horntweeter operates from 80 Hz to 20 kHz in the baffle. You don't even need a notch filter for the highs; very good rolloff above 4 kHz. It's a mortal sin to add a 24 dB filter. I'm not here to convert people; if Kingrex interested, then he can contact me (PM).

Four different speaker systems to date.

One was two pairs of electrostats (Acoustat Spectra 2200 and 4400) with Accuphase F25 active crossover and two KR Audio amps.

The second was the Infinity IRS Beta, which requires biamping. Even though it sounded ok with a big SS amp on the woofers it did really gel until I had two medium sized PP EL34 based amps on both panels and woofers.

The third was my own design BG driver planar hybrid, driven first by Class D on bass and KR Audio on planar driver with Accuphase F25 as crossover. Once I got rid of the class D for.a second KR amp the sound gelled together.

The fourth is my current DIY horn system. I have used both digital and analog active crossovers (mini-DSP nanodigi and Accuphase F-15L). I had a small EL84 class A triode amp on the horn and a SEP EL34 on the mid-bass but it didn’t really gel until I put SET on both drivers.

 

[morricab]

He bought a horn subwoofer, so he could also use a 10" Beyma and install it in a BLD 2 horn. Put a 6dB filter in front of the horn tweeter at 5kHz with an L pad and adjust the volume of the tweeter, it will sound like this. A lot of options in the audio world.

If you want horn speed but more depth and fullness I have TQWT to provide that without having a very long horn. I have backloaded horns in my Odeon La Bohemes and while the midbass punch is world class, they don’t go much below 40hz. So, bass quality is amazing but heft is sometimes lacking. For most music it’s ok but for some you notice the lack of heft. My Hornings have nearly the speed of the Odeons but go down low with authority and they are TQWT in about the same size cabinet as the Odeons.

 

[morricab]

Some argue they have to be the exact same amplifier model. One reason I bought a spare pair of ML2.

That is the ideal but if you don’t or can’t get identical then I have found same topology is close enough.

 

[DasguteOhr]

If you want horn speed but more depth and fullness I have TQWT to provide that without having a very long horn. I have backloaded horns in my Odeon La Bohemes and while the midbass punch is world class, they don’t go much below 40hz. So, bass quality is amazing but heft is sometimes lacking. For most music it’s ok but for some you notice the lack of heft. My Hornings have nearly the speed of the Odeons but go down low with authority and they are TQWT in about the same size cabinet as the Odeons.

The coax will do too 40hz-3db in bld 2 horn, together with his hornsubwoofer it sound good my opion. Ok a coral 10" beta do 35hz in this horn.

 

[DasguteOhr]

Four different speaker systems to date.

One was two pairs of electrostats (Acoustat Spectra 2200 and 4400) with Accuphase F25 active crossover and two KR Audio amps.

The second was the Infinity IRS Beta, which requires biamping. Even though it sounded ok with a big SS amp on the woofers it did really gel until I had two medium sized PP EL34 based amps on both panels and woofers.

The third was my own design BG driver planar hybrid, driven first by Class D on bass and KR Audio on planar driver with Accuphase F25 as crossover. Once I got rid of the class D for.a second KR amp the sound gelled together.

The fourth is my current DIY horn system. I have used both digital and analog active crossovers (mini-DSP nanodigi and Accuphase F-15L). I had a small EL84 class A triode amp on the horn and a SEP EL34 on the mid-bass but it didn’t really gel until I put SET on both drivers.

The big difference is that it doesn't require an active frequency crossover for my solution. The coax run full-range without a filter is only for horn tweeter 12db filter. The bass xover is integrated into the amp. Simply disconnect two cables and power the bass directly. Connect the 10" midbass driver directly to the tube amp and run the tweeter through the existing passive xover. The semi-active speaker is complete.
measure the frequency response a bit and adjust the volume in bass..ready
P.S
The mobile app audiotool and a measuring microphone are sufficient for this purpose

 

[Lagonda]

I don't quite understand what you're asking? There is a crossover with my speaker. I believe the woofers are crossing somewhere around 600 to 800 hertz.

Do you have a crossover limiting the bass to the main speakers, or are they running full range.

 

[morricab]

The big difference is that it doesn't require an active frequency crossover for my solution. The coax run full-range without a filter is only for horn tweeter 12db filter. The bass xover is integrated into the amp. Simply disconnect two cables and power the bass directly. Connect the 10" midbass driver directly to the tube amp and run the tweeter through the existing passive xover. The semi-active speaker is complete.
measure the frequency response a bit and adjust the volume in bass..ready
P.S
The mobile app audiotool and a measuring microphone are sufficient for this purpose

Ah, see what you are saying, there is no need to filter the 10 inch midbass driver of the coax…I agree, just tailor the bass low pass filter to fit the natural rolloff of the coax midbass…if it can handle being unloaded from a power perspective.

 

[DasguteOhr]

Do you have a crossover limiting the bass to the main speakers, or are they running full range.

The 15" woofer runs up to ~ 250hz 12db xover, the 10" mid driver from 250- 2khz 24db xover, horn tweeter 2khz- 20khz 12db xover
Just ran it through the computer, based on the component size and driver parameters. No guarantee or measurement.

 

[DasguteOhr]

Ah, see what you are saying, there is no need to filter the 10 inch midbass driver of the coax…I agree, just tailor the bass low pass filter to fit the natural rolloff of the coax midbass…if it can handle being unloaded from a power perspective.

The beyma driver can handle easy 200watts at 96db/ 1watt down to 50hz. Its a proaudio driver this thing plays so loud that blood run out your ears..promise
P.S
Did hear the martion bullfrog this driver is the little brother

Bullfrog : Martion

Audiosysteme

martion.de