Magico M7 2023

[Rhapsody]

Congratulations on the good business Bob. What amps do those two new customers use at home with their new M9s?

I enjoyed my Magico Mini II and Q3 for many years with large Pass Class A SS amps, but when I heard the SET in my room driving those Magicos, I decided to get speakers that could be driven properly by my amps. Some choose speakers first and find well matching amps to drive them properly, and others choose amps first then speakers that can be driven by those amps. It sounds like the M9 can be driven nicely by a variety of good amplifiers. I am not surprised by the preference for the Kaguras in some condititions.

Thx Peter. The one user already owned two each stereo VAC 300's and he plans on keeping those. The M9s sound REALLY GOOD with the VAC 300 stereo amps.

The second user if he had his druthers would have two VAC 455iq stereo amps, but at the moment he is evaluating different SS options (Soulution and CH P), all used pieces, just to get the M9s playing. This customer has the M9s in a temporary room while a new much larger room being planned and built yet this year. I think long term he will end up using two each stereo VAC 455iqs.

This second user would love four Kaguras, but once you hear the Kaguras with the Amperex 211's that is what you want. Finding 8 good/matched Amperex tubes is pretty much impossible. My suggestion for M9s is not to go the Kagura route, but with M7s it is very possible if that is one's preference after listening and understanding the possible limitations that might arise if the M7s were in a BIG room and high SPL's were preferred.

Different strokes for different folks.....

 

[JiminGa]

I sold and installed two pairs of M9s in the last few months. Both of the new M9 owners visited me in Brooklyn prior to their M9 purchase. They both listened to the VAC, Pilium and Kondo Kaguras. Both visitors who are now M9 owners first choice on the M7s was the Kaguras.

Of course the Kaguras would not be everyone's first choice noting the SPL levels, size of rooms, types of music played and overall personal preference, but for these two listeners and myself as well, we all love the sound of the M7s when driven with the Kaguras. Another close friend who is a reviewer also prefers the Kaguras on the M7s, ESPECIALLY with vinyl.

Sure, as I said it’s dealers choice. Plenty of people choose things I wouldn’t and that’s ok. I don’t know the M9s impedance curve. I also don’t know the Kaguras performance into 4 and 2 ohm loads. Either way if they are happy that’s all that counts. I was simply answering the question objectively

 

[Rhapsody]

Sure, as I said it’s dealers choice. Plenty of people choose things I wouldn’t and that’s ok. I don’t know the M9s impedance curve. I also don’t know the Kaguras performance into 4 and 2 ohm loads. Either way if they are happy that’s all that counts. I was simply answering the question objectively

Sure, there are many variables and as I said I would not recommend four Kaguras for M9s. For M7s, maybe, depending on the situation. I would not know unless I heard four Kaguras on M9s with Amperex tubes whether I would like that as much as I like the Kaguras/Amperex on the M7s, and listening to M9s driven with four Kaguras/Amperex I doubt will ever happen.

 

[Elliot G.]

I did a reinstall of a clients M7's and he decided to put the DAG Relentless Pre and Mono's in the listening room and take out the VAC gear. The VAC gear was their top preamp and the mono amps that stand up straight ( sorry I dont know the models) with the side tubes.
I had to reset up everything since we put in new rack and tried to make the system look and sound better. I did not finish the look part but am mostly done with the sound I have a few things left to do in the next week or so including installing the MPODS. I wanted him to listen for a few days before I finish and after we moved all of that incredibly heavy stuff, I have to admit I was out of energy.
The system now is full Wadax Reference , full AKASA, Server PS., DAG Electronics, REL Top of the line subs 2, Massif Racks and a mixture of cables that the client owns. A subject for another time.
My client's reaction "Speakers are just faster, punchier and have much better attack. But the most important thing is the music is just magical and much more emotional to me"

I have to agree that I much prefer the sound now than before and I set them up both times. I told him and I believe that there is still more i can get from the system just need a few hours when I am not tired and I can focus on just doing the final dialing in. I'm glad that I can make him happy with the huge system he has, its ben a long trip for him

 

[PeterA]

I did a reinstall of a clients M7's and he decided to put the DAG Relentless Pre and Mono's in the listening room and take out the VAC gear. The VAC gear was their top preamp and the mono amps that stand up straight ( sorry I dont know the models) with the side tubes

My client's reaction "Speakers are just faster, punchier and have much better attack. But the most important thing is the music is just magical and much more emotional to me"

I have to agree that I much prefer the sound now than before and I set them up both times. I told him and I believe that there is still more i can get from the system just need a few hours when I am not tired and I can focus on just doing the final dialing in. I'm glad that I can make him happy with the huge system he has, its ben a long trip for him

Elliot, to what do you attribute the increase in speed and punch and attack? The electronics, the rest of the gear, the set up? Was anything given up switching from tubes to SS? I have always found Magico speakers to be fairly transparent to the upstream gear.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Elliot, to what do you attribute the increase in speed and punch and attack? The electronics, the rest of the gear, the set up? Was anything given up switching from tubes to SS? I have always found Magico speakers to be fairly transparent to the upstream gear.

having had VAC Statement 450's in my system in direct compare to my solid state dart 468's; one part of what solid state does compared to (at least VAC) tubes is lowering noise. so this does result in apparent agility increase.......speed. less overhang (non musical artifact warmth) , more nuance.

my comments are meant to be anecdotal specific to my experience, not any tube/ss generalization. some prefer that warmth, or some system balances need it.

 

[sbo6]

How easy a speaker is to drive is specified by its sensitivity and impedance curve. M7 has sensitivity of 92db and nominal impedance of 4 ohms. I don’t have M7 curve but other measured 4 ohm Magico speakers will dip to somewhere between 2.3 and 3.1 ohms. Some say you would want to be able to achieve theoretic max of 120 db but let’s settle for 110 db for peaks. That equates to 64 W in a 92 db speaker. This is for 8 ohms. At 4 ohms it doubles (128W ) 2 ohms (256W) “easy to drive” depends upon your listening choices the spl you listen at and the type of music (dynamic peaks) you listen to. If you don’t have the power for your choices you will lose some frequency response at certain low impedance frequencies (usually bass). That’s not necessarily a deal killer if you love the amps midrange and dont listen at high spl’s. It depends on you and your tastes. Science will tell you what’s possible but listening is also important to answer your question. Hope this helps.

92 DB at 1 meter is not the same as where a typical listening seat (your ears) are. The further you are, the more power you need. A doubling of distance from a sound source results in a 6 dB decrease in SPL. So, for a 92 DB SPL at 1 meter will measure 86 DB at 2 meters and 80 DB at 4 meters.

 

[JiminGa]

92 DB at 1 meter is not the same as where a typical listening seat (your ears) are. The further you are, the more power you need. A doubling of distance from a sound source results in a 6 dB decrease in SPL. So, for a 92 DB SPL at 1 meter will measure 86 DB at 2 meters and 80 DB at 4 meters.

Yes of course. I didn’t want to get too far into the weeds. My point is that it actually takes a fair amount of power to fully power up a 92db 4 ohm speaker (2.5 minimum) at realistic spls. You are of course correct and that doesn’t even account for headroom necessary when listening at concert levels. When people wonder why it sounds “faster” or more realistic when switching to more powerful amps it’s because unbeknownst to them there is “dropout” of spl at various frequencies where the impedance drops when using underpowered amps. One might prefer them for one reason or the other but there is an undeniable cost.

 

[sbo6]

Yes of course. I didn’t want to get too far into the weeds. My point is that it actually takes a fair amount of power to fully power up a 92db 4 ohm speaker (2.5 minimum) at realistic spls. You are of course correct and that doesn’t even account for headroom necessary when listening at concert levels. When people wonder why it sounds “faster” or more realistic when switching to more powerful amps it’s because unbeknownst to them there is “dropout” of spl at various frequencies where the impedance drops when using underpowered amps. One might prefer them for one reason or the other but there is an undeniable cost.

There isn't a dropout at frequencies with lower impedance, the amplifier will clip and result in higher distortion.

 

[JiminGa]

There isn't a dropout at frequencies with lower impedance, the amplifier will clip and result in higher distortion.

Thanks. My understanding is that clipping is frequency dependent. If these waves are "clipped" wouldn't the distortion occur at these frequencies? (in this example where the amp can't meet the demand due to low impedance)

 

[sbo6]

Thanks. My understanding is that clipping is frequency dependent. If these waves are "clipped" wouldn't the distortion occur at these frequencies? (in this example where the amp can't meet the demand due to low impedance)

I don't believe it's that specific whereby the extra current demand at lower impedance frequencies = clipping explicitly at those frequencies. I would surmise the entire signal would clip but an amplifier designer would know better than me. Good question.

 

[MarkusBarkus]

...FWIW when I was considering the purchase of the new A5s, and I was running a pair of bridged Luxman m900s, I contacted Luxman, who conferred with Magico, re: the big impedance dip.

My concern was based on JA's tech sidebar 3 in Stereophile's review of the new A5:
"The EPDR 1 drops below 2 ohms between 53Hz and 120Hz, with a minimum value of 1 ohm at 70Hz. The A5 must be used with amplifiers that don't have problems driving 2 ohm loads."

The engineers on both sides of the planet relayed that it would be fine. Play whatever music you like at whatever SPLs you like, BUT they advised against test-CD type signal sweeps played loudly, which might linger at the "dip" frequency.

 

[Elliot G.]

Elliot, to what do you attribute the increase in speed and punch and attack? The electronics, the rest of the gear, the set up? Was anything given up switching from tubes to SS? I have always found Magico speakers to be fairly transparent to the upstream gear.

Peter the answer is obvious. I can't say that I think the Relentless 1600 is my favorite amp or that I love it but I can say that in this case and in this system the amps really light up the M7 in every way. The sound is bigger, much faster, much clearer with better dynamics on both ends of the spectrum. IMHO they sounded before like they had a governor on them , they sounded IMO slower and there was less clarity and more hash. I don't sell either brand just to be clear!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I posted the clients comments so he is the one that lives with them daily. I did both set ups in that room with the speakers and although I still have some work to do he is very happy at this time, as he was before but you saw his comment. My personal opinion is these big time dynamic speakers need "da juice" to come to life. Efficiency is a nice stat but it does not equate to SQ directly. It may tell you what you can use but not how it will sound particularly when you are playing large scale pieces of music that have large demands on the amplifiers.
For sure their will always be personal choice and compromises to choose and that is the crux of all of this discussion isn't it?

 

[PeterA]

Peter the answer is obvious. I can't say that I think the Relentless 1600 is my favorite amp or that I love it but I can say that in this case and in this system the amps really light up the M7 in every way. The sound is bigger, much faster, much clearer with better dynamics on both ends of the spectrum. IMHO they sounded before like they had a governor on them , they sounded IMO slower and there was less clarity and more hash. I don't sell either brand just to be clear!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I posted the clients comments so he is the one that lives with them daily. I did both set ups in that room with the speakers and although I still have some work to do he is very happy at this time, as he was before but you saw his comment. My personal opinion is these big time dynamic speakers need "da juice" to come to life. Efficiency is a nice stat but it does not equate to SQ directly. It may tell you what you can use but not how it will sound particularly when you are playing large scale pieces of music that have large demands on the amplifiers.
For sure their will always be personal choice and compromises to choose and that is the crux of all of this discussion isn't it?

I always found that Magico speakers need much more power than people think in order to come alive and sound convincing. The challenge is finding a good sounding amplifier that has sufficient power. Because the speakers are so low in distortion, one hears the contribution from and character of the amplifier toward the resulting presentation.

 

[bonzo75]

having had VAC Statement 450's in my system in direct compare to my solid state dart 468's; one part of what solid state does compared to (at least VAC) tubes is lowering noise. so this does result in apparent agility increase.......speed. less overhang (non musical artifact warmth) , more nuance

This is true with push pull high powered tubes. Therefore for such applications SS usually sounds better, even at much less expensive levels like Symphonic line Kraft

 

[worldtime]

After demoed all these amps home for months, EmmLabs MTRS is the only one can fully drive m7. After this practice, I stopped caring about the power specs what so ever. For me they are just useless numbers. For speakers like m7, stop guessing if the amp power numbers can work or not, don’t listen to your dealers opinions, just ask for all of them for home demos, then your ears will tell you the truth.

Rating them top to bottom for my liking
1. EmmLabs mtrs
2. Vitus103
3. Pilium Kronos
4. Circle labs m200 mono
5. Mephisto stereo
6. Momentum 400 mxv ( the only one that was not capable to drive m7)

 

[Audiohertz2]

What pre amp are you using? Not discounting your findings , but not all pre amp/Amp combos are good. Some can be good on a particular amp , anathema on another …

 

[worldtime]

What pre amp are you using? Not discounting your findings , but not all pre amp/Amp combos are good. Some can be good on a particular amp , anathema on another …

I use Burmeister 808mk5 with reference power supply to test all of them, and pilium olympus to compare when testing the Kronos.

 

[microstrip]

After demoed all these amps home for months, EmmLabs MTRS is the only one can fully drive m7. After this practice, I stopped caring about the power specs what so ever. For me they are just useless numbers. For speakers like m7, stop guessing if the amp power numbers can work or not, don’t listen to your dealers opinions, just ask for all of them for home demos, then your ears will tell you the truth.

Rating them top to bottom for my liking
1. EmmLabs mtrs
2. Vitus103
3. Pilium Kronos
4. Circle labs m200 mono
5. Mephisto stereo
6. Momentum 400 mxv ( the only one that was not capable to drive m7)

IMO you are mostly testing preamplifier combability - the 808mk5 can sound excellent but is not an universal preamplifier. And extremely powerful amplifier can sound underpowered with a non adequate preamplifier. As you say, high-end matching is more than numbers ...

Did you try a Burmeister amplifier with your 808mk5? When I listened to the 159 I was very impressed - extremely musical and powerful.

Just MO, but we should demo pre and amplifier sets, not single units. Surely YMMV.

 

[Elliot G.]

I use Burmeister 808mk5 with reference power supply to test all of them, and pilium olympus to compare when testing the Kronos.

I have the EMM stereo and the Mono's in my place and they do control a loudspeaker really well. I have used both the Stereo and the Mono's on my large Speakers and they do it easily. I have set up M7's twice now in the same room with VAC and DAG Relentless 1600 and IMO there is very little comparison. I doubt that I can ever get the EMM there since the client has already purchased those huge expensive amplifiers but it migh tbe eye opening...
BTW I have heard 4 of your six amps and I am using a Riviera Pre