What speaker gets the bass most right?

[Mark (Basspig) Weiss]

Indeed Mark, and nobody knows that better than you!

--Ethan

If the ground doesn't shake outside your house, it's not REAL bass.

BTW, after spending $7000 bringing my electric service up to code, going from very shaky service to 200 amp service, the sound system plays better than ever. Even at low volume levels, the SPL is higher for the same 'signal present' indication on the power amps. Used to be 129dB when those green lights are flickering. After power upgrade, now 132dB when the green lights are flickering. Improvement most notable on the frequencies below 20Hz.

 

[SCAudiophile]

zephyr24069 and I have a different perspective than most all audiophiles, as we are both musicians (I've also been a trumpet player most of my life), and want to reproduce the realism of being "in" the orchestra, not what you would hear seated in the 20th row/ far from the impact zone of real world dynamics. The large orchestral drum wallops in the Telarc CD Trittico are centered close to 28z. Only when you have sat 3 feet in front of one of them, does your frame of reference forever change. Being a former drummer, once you sit behind a set of drums, or play in a band where you feel every note on stage ,not just hear it, you want to replicate that percussive effect with your stereo. Displacement is where percussive effect comes from, very simple physics. Small audiophile subs (REL, JL 112, etc). with limited displacement(please, no flames from the owners of these subs), will give you limited bass extension and dynamic slam. Same with pipe organ music. I worked as a pipe organ builder for 7 years. Going back home and trying to reproduce a recorded concert reveals system deficiencies. The myth in audio is that the bigger the subwoofer, the slower/mushy the bass is, but it is actually the inductance of the driver that determines tightness/accuracy. Interesting paper on this subject written by Dan Wiggins ( world famous speaker designer) :

http://www.yildiz.edu.tr/~ilkorur/WooferSpeed.pdf

Everyone likes a different sound though and has different taste in music, and 90% of the people have limited budgets to work with. Just like going from room to room at the CES Show, the high efficiency/tube guys from Japan would not play my Telarc pipe organ recordings as they knew their 6 1/2" woofers would bottom out, and burn up their voice coils with a 16z note held for 30 seconds Bach piece. Or the guy at Ocean Way sound with his 30K speakers that I got to bottom out the woofers on my first song. But to have a system that will reproduce ALL aspects of live music, sufficient displacement must be available.

Absolutely agreed! It's been over 20 years for me not picking up the horn (big mistake, have to fix that, and soon!). We definitely should talk....I apprenticed to a French Pipe Organ builder when I was 15-18 years old; love the big pipe organs and wish I could have continued to work on them and eventually learn to play. Have a great day!

 

[SCAudiophile]

If the ground doesn't shake outside your house, it's not REAL bass.

Amen Brother!!!

 

[16hz lover]

If the ground doesn't shake outside your house, it's not REAL bass.

BTW, after spending $7000 bringing my electric service up to code, going from very shaky service to 200 amp service, the sound system plays better than ever. Even at low volume levels, the SPL is higher for the same 'signal present' indication on the power amps. Used to be 129dB when those green lights are flickering. After power upgrade, now 132dB when the green lights are flickering. Improvement most notable on the frequencies below 20Hz.

Eliminating line sag is always an improvement.

 

[fas42]

Displacement is where percussive effect comes from, very simple physics. Small audiophile subs (REL, JL 112, etc). with limited displacement(please, no flames from the owners of these subs), will give you limited bass extension and dynamic slam. Same with pipe organ music. I worked as a pipe organ builder for 7 years. Going back home and trying to reproduce a recorded concert reveals system deficiencies. The myth in audio is that the bigger the subwoofer, the slower/mushy the bass is, but it is actually the inductance of the driver that determines tightness/accuracy. Interesting paper on this subject written by Dan Wiggins ( world famous speaker designer) :

To give a flavour of what I pursue, have a listen here, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZ9LQh3UbWU, and use 720p setting for best quality. This is a recording of a thrown out Philips HT all-in-one box, tiny speakers, single small subwoofer, that I was playing around with a number of years ago. Apologies for the terrible recording quality and technique, I was using the extremely limited recording mechanism of a low cost Fuji camera; the gain control of this overloaded terribly easily, and I had to place it halfway down the house when recording, so that it didn't clip badly.

 

[FrantzM]

To give a flavour of what I pursue, have a listen here, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZ9LQh3UbWU, and use 720p setting for best quality. This is a recording of a thrown out Philips HT all-in-one box, tiny speakers, single small subwoofer, that I was playing around with a number of years ago. Apologies for the terrible recording quality and technique, I was using the extremely limited recording mechanism of a low cost Fuji camera; the gain control of this overloaded terribly easily, and I had to place it halfway down the house when recording, so that it didn't clip badly.

Will wonders ever cease?

 

[fas42]

If you want percussive impact, try this, in the flesh: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=axtX21upLyI ! I was about 20 feet away from a shorter version, about 20 years ago, with just bare ears. Was almost totally deaf for about 1/4 hour afterwards - but, man, those transients !!!

 

[witchdoctor]

I get the impression that the bass may be the most difficult frequency for a speaker manufacturer to get to sound most realistic. As an electrostat owner, I already have the magical midrange and highs (with proper amplification). But although my speakers get the texture and tonality of the bass perfectly down to 28Hz, there is not enough of the speed or impact of what real bass sounds like in a club or in the hall - such as when that bass drum is cracked.

From what I have heard, the best bass I have heard is by Wilson Maxx 3 (and Maxx 2). Any other contenders out there?

IMO active speakers with internal amps and active crossovers get the bass most right, no question. Paradigm made the Studio 40 and the Active 40, mirror copies of each other except the active speakers had internal amplification, active crossover etc. The frequency reposponse of the passive 40 is ±2dB from 59 Hz - 22 kHz and the active 40 is ±1dB 36Hz-22kHz. There is a reason 90% of subwoofers are all active.

Now please don't take this comparison as apples to apples it is just an example, The Maxx 3 has a frequency response of +/-3 dB 20 Hz - 22.5 kHz using a passive approach. The Devialet Phantom is a about the size of a microwave oven but takes the active approach and combines it with DSP to achieve ± 2dB from 20Hz to 20kHz. I am not saying the Phantom gets the bass most right I am saying that active speakers get the bass right compared to passive speakers in general.

 

[fas42]

Now please don't take this comparison as apples to apples it is just an example, The Maxx 3 has a frequency response of +/-3 dB 20 Hz - 22.5 kHz using a passive approach. The Devialet Phantom is a about the size of a microwave oven but takes the active approach and combines it with DSP to achieve ± 2dB from 20Hz to 20kHz. I am not saying the Phantom gets the bass most right I am saying that active speakers get the bass right compared to passive speakers in general.

The point here of course is that when either of those speakers is replicating a pure 20Hz sine wave, how much 40, 60, 80Hz, etc harmonic distortion is also output? High levels of 20Hz ain't 20Hz if there is plenty of energy at the distortion frequencies also happening - and the fact that the human ear is much, much more sensitive as the frequencies climb from 20Hz only makes this situation much worse again ...

 

[witchdoctor]

The point here of course is that when either of those speakers is replicating a pure 20Hz sine wave, how much 40, 60, 80Hz, etc harmonic distortion is also output? High levels of 20Hz ain't 20Hz if there is plenty of energy at the distortion frequencies also happening - and the fact that the human ear is much, much more sensitive as the frequencies climb from 20Hz only makes this situation much worse again ...

When the engineer can build the entire enclosure with an active crossover and hand pick the amps for each driver and then fine tune it with DSP you are more likely to achieve that pure sine wave than with Joe Sixpack taking a mishmash of components and throwing them together. Another variable you don't have to contend with is speaker wire, active speakers don't need them. Check this out:

http://pteacoustics.com/linked/the case for powered speakers.pdf

 

[FrantzM]

The point here of course is that when either of those speakers is replicating a pure 20Hz sine wave, how much 40, 60, 80Hz, etc harmonic distortion is also output? High levels of 20Hz ain't 20Hz if there is plenty of energy at the distortion frequencies also happening - and the fact that the human ear is much, much more sensitive as the frequencies climb from 20Hz only makes this situation much worse again ...

Here came the day when I agreed with fas42...
.. I don't think I am happy about it... Now I can't simply reject your posts without reading them .. Don't deprive me of such pleasure ..

That is a great point and one many either forget or are oblivious to. Some manufacturers (among these some quite respected and prestigious) use this fact to give their speakers the impression of more bass output ... Distortion for sure but one some come to prefer because they lack the reference of what real bass is.

I am with Mark, 16Hzlover (great screen name) and ..gasp... fas42 there ... Bass is displacement and power. Low distortion in bass will strike many as actually lacking bass until they realize their internal organs vibrating and the clarity brought in hearing the higher frequencies better. It is a surprising fact.. More, perhaps later

.Damn you fas42 !

 

[KlausR.]

The point here of course is that when either of those speakers is replicating a pure 20Hz sine wave, how much 40, 60, 80Hz, etc harmonic distortion is also output?

Here's the graph of my speakers..



All you need to know now is the perception threshold of 2nd and 3rd harmonics.

Klaus

 

[fas42]

.Damn you fas42 !

I'm sorry I've just become a great disappointment for you, Franz ... bear with me, I'm sure I will regurgitate some complete twaddle in a short while - to restore normality ... .

 

[fas42]

Here's the graph of my speakers..

All you need to know now is the perception threshold of 2nd and 3rd harmonics.

Klaus

This,

from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal-loudness_contour.

How does that shape up now?

 

[microstrip]

The point here of course is that when either of those speakers is replicating a pure 20Hz sine wave, how much 40, 60, 80Hz, etc harmonic distortion is also output? High levels of 20Hz ain't 20Hz if there is plenty of energy at the distortion frequencies also happening - and the fact that the human ear is much, much more sensitive as the frequencies climb from 20Hz only makes this situation much worse again ...

As far as I know, it is usually accepted that at the very low frequencies played by subwoofers up to 10% distortion is perfectly acceptable and inaudible.

 

[fas42]

Well, just looking at the graph I posted, for a 20Hz tone being heard at 90dB level, a 40Hz harmonic occurring at 70dB would sound equally loud, subjectively. 10% down is -20dB, so that "inaudible" 40Hz harmonic actually sounds just as loud as the 20Hz fundamental - as far as your ear is concerned, 100% distortion! Which means the subwoofers have to be brilliantly low in distortion, to not flood the room with "fake" bass ...

 

[16hz lover]

... Bass is displacement and power. Low distortion in bass will strike many as actually lacking bass until they realize their internal organs vibrating and the clarity brought in hearing the higher frequencies better.

Watching the (8) 18" woofers(low inductance) powered by 10K watts or so in a friends system, and noticing that they are only moving 3/4" of travel out of their 4" peak to peak xmax is a real treat. Then replaying the in room measured mic response of a SpectraLab PC measurement program that gives a multi colored graph of the frequencies, intensity, spl, distortion,amplifier power, clipping (if present) etc. confirming what was happening in the room, is even more fun. Kind of like my pipe organ days where I would go inside the pedal note chamber and sit on a stool while the organist payed a bombastic piece with the 32 foot stops in action. It put a smile on my face that would take 3 Undertakers to wipe off.

 

[Mark (Basspig) Weiss]

If you want percussive impact, try this, in the flesh: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=axtX21upLyI ! I was about 20 feet away from a shorter version, about 20 years ago, with just bare ears. Was almost totally deaf for about 1/4 hour afterwards - but, man, those transients !!!

Try my Ultimate Fireworks BD. Only a handful of systems in the world can play it at realistic volume levels.

 

[Mark (Basspig) Weiss]

Well, just looking at the graph I posted, for a 20Hz tone being heard at 90dB level, a 40Hz harmonic occurring at 70dB would sound equally loud, subjectively. 10% down is -20dB, so that "inaudible" 40Hz harmonic actually sounds just as loud as the 20Hz fundamental - as far as your ear is concerned, 100% distortion! Which means the subwoofers have to be brilliantly low in distortion, to not flood the room with "fake" bass ...

Absolutely true! The Fletcher-Munsen curve puts human hearing at a serious disadvantage at low frequencies, favoring ANY harmonics.
A while back, I did some measurements at 16Hz into a Tektronix AA501 distortion analyzer and a HP spectrum analyzer. I had to try different mic preamps because the distortion in the mic preamps was affecting the readings. I used a Behringer B1 microphone into a Behringer mixer, and after selecting the preamp channel with the lowest electrical distortion, I found a sweet spot between picking up ambient noise (THD+N) and wall vibration distortion. As I recall, THD+N was under 0.4% at 115dB. Any louder than that and walls emitted their own noises, affecting the readings. At those levels, cone displacement was about 1mm. It's that low distortion that makes for the unique Bass Pig experience that observers seem to be mystified about.

 

[KlausR.]

Well, just looking at the graph I posted, for a 20Hz tone being heard at 90dB level, a 40Hz harmonic occurring at 70dB would sound equally loud…

We are speaking of distortion, not equal-loudness contours: “An equal-loudness contour is a measure of sound pressure (dB SPL), over the frequency spectrum, for which a listener perceives a constant loudness when presented with pure steady tones.”

Distortion on the other hand is the alteration of the original shape of the waveform, giving rise to amplitude distortion. No pure steady tone anymore, accompanied by other pure steady tones, your line of reasoning has successfully failed. No additional “fake” bass notes at 40, 60, 80 Hz, but distorted bass of 20 Hz. The increased sensitivity for higher frequencies, the equal-loudness contours, are of no concern here, but the sensitivity for distortion and the corresponding perception thresholds. FrantzM can happily continue to disagree with you?

A woofer playing 20 Hz does produce distortion, yes, but to know whether or not these are a problem, you need to know the perception thresholds. So once again: what are the perception thresholds of harmonic distortion in the low frequency region?


Klaus