What speaker gets the bass most right?

[mauidan]

Extra cost. I only have 100 w/p/c amps

Yes, but you've got 1000 w/p/c amps (class D?) pushing the woofers, so your extra cost is built in.

So once again, why does this make the other speakers unfortunate?

These days, just about anyone can put a high powered Class D amp and DSP crossover in a box and create vibrations felt outside the house.

IMO, most music listeners aren't concerned about reproducing the "authenticity of a volcano eruption."

A 30 minute flight to the Big Island, and I can hear & see the real thing.

 

[Mark (Basspig) Weiss]

Well, after typing my replies, I hit Reply to Thread and blew away my 20 minute's worth so I'm not going to repeat myself again.

I'll summarize: a sound system for all seasons can put you in the middle of a battle field, or the fourth row center of a symphony hall.
Sometimes you need to do both and do them well.

 

[jadis]

A friend of mine resurrected an HQD system of a common friend's dad a couple of years ago. It does has its faults but I have to say it can still sound extremely beautiful. Amps are all vintage Quad IIs and Eicos.

I had the chance to listen to IRS IIIs and the owner was playing track 7 of Paramita so loud I had to leave the room in fear for my hearing. Jadis as well as Mullard88 were there too. Yes, the bass was extraordinary.

Yes, I remember that night, Jack. Since I may have heard the track longer that you, I wonder now if my hearing had been affected as sometimes I don't hear what my kids say lately. LOL.

 

[jadis]

Now, I'm going nuts and a little overboard with the latest Genesis 1.2 - twenty-four 12-in woofers (4-times the IRS V), nearly 9000W of servo-controlled bass amplification. You'll still have to supply the amplification for the midrange and tweeters.

If you can call a four tower system a full-range loudspeaker...

Hi Gary,

Twenty Four 12" woofers? Are these 24 woofers mounted on on 4 woofer towers PLUS the 2 mid/high panels? That should make the system like 6 pieces all in all?

 

[mojave]

The 12" drivers are in a dual opposed setup with each tower getting 12 woofers: 6 woofers on the front and 6 on the back. This makes for two towers for the bass system. I wouldn't call the four tower system a full-range loudspeaker. However, I would call it a very impressive full range system!

Last week I received all the drivers/parts for some line source speakers I am building. I've thought about building matching bass towers.

 

[garylkoh]

Mojave is correct. At the bass frequency, the front and back woofers are out of phase wired in parallel with a single accelerometer, and the vibrations cancel in the cabinet. Actually I prefer to align the woofer towers so that the woofers are side-firing but so far, all the owners want to see the woofers so they are front-back.

It would be great if mojave can document the building of his line source speakers in the diy section. If you're going to be building matching bass towers, use class D amplifier modules.

 

[jadis]

Thank, Mojave and Gary. BTW, Gary, I had the chance of meeting you at least twice in your visits to Manila. Once in a demo showroom of the Genesis 1, another in the home of the owner of a Genesis 2, he later upgraded to the Gen 1 that was in the showroom.

 

[garylkoh]

Cool! I look forward to another meeting! The folks in Manila are some of the most committed music lovers I've had the pleasure to meet.

 

[16hz lover]

Bumping an old thread for new entries.

 

[fas42]

Any speaker that is driven by a correctly sorted electronics chain ...

 

[16hz lover]

Any speaker that is driven by a correctly sorted electronics chain ...

The OP was looking for specific models. Emerson "genuine stereophonic" speakers driven by 500K worth of electronics will still have no usable or accurate bass.

 

[fas42]

Looking at the OP,

But although my speakers get the texture and tonality of the bass perfectly down to 28Hz, there is not enough of the speed or impact of what real bass sounds like in a club or in the hall - such as when that bass drum is cracked.

... this is what gets done right when the driving chain is working properly - I have there dozens of times, a nothing speaker is transformed into a bass impact "monster" when the signal being fed to it has been upped in quality ...

 

[16hz lover]

Looking at the OP,



... this is what gets done right when the driving chain is working properly - I have there dozens of times, a nothing speaker is transformed into a bass impact "monster" when the signal being fed to it has been upped in quality ...

There's no substitute for displacement. A 5 1/4" woofer with 3mm of xmax will never deliver live orchestral bass drum whacks (well, maybe at 60db levels , or 50th row distances). If you sit in the trumpet section, right in front of the 4ft. Diameter drum, it is a different perspective.

 

[fas42]

There's no substitute for displacement. A 5 1/4" woofer with 3mm of xmax will never deliver live orchestral bass drum whacks (well, maybe at 60db levels , or 50th row distances). If you sit in the trumpet section, right in front of the 4ft. Diameter drum, it is a different perspective.

I have yet another perspective on things - lumbering dinosaur bass is not my cup of tea, and you never hear such from real instruments. Sorry, the sense of impact of the bass drum whack is not a bass thing, it's much higher in the frequency range - and I never hear the correct quality from conventional audio rigs; it's always far too stodgy, plodding, and polite. I carry with me CDs with striking bass content, to try on systems - and the results are usually laughable ... :b.

 

[garylkoh]

I have yet another perspective on things - lumbering dinosaur bass is not my cup of tea, and you never hear such from real instruments. Sorry, the sense of impact of the bass drum whack is not a bass thing, it's much higher in the frequency range - and I never hear the correct quality from conventional audio rigs; it's always far too stodgy, plodding, and polite. I carry with me CDs with striking bass content, to try on systems - and the results are usually laughable ... :b.

Frank, have you made it to listen to a modern loudspeaker with well integrated servo-bass system yet?

 

[SCAudiophile]

fas42: Taiko Drumming, Orchestral Bass Drum best demo tracks, et. al., bring 'em all over here (though I have many myself);
you are definitely welcome and you would be in for a treat! You won't hear stodgy, plodding and polite here, ever.

With respect, I will disagree with your assertion that the only impactful parts of such strikes are in the frequencies
above those normally considered bass frequencies. Such strikes are broader in range and impact as far as what sums
up to be 'the strike' you feel. The frequency range(s), harmonics around the strike, etc...are also influenced not only
by size of the drum but how that head is tuned (many are variable), type of head, type of mallet or hammer, size
of same, etc....

Like 16hz lover, I've sat in the trumpet section of orchestras, and wind ensembles;
you get a true perspective as to what percussive effect in music is all about!

 

[fas42]

Frank, have you made it to listen to a modern loudspeaker with well integrated servo-bass system yet?

Gary, I'm sure there are speakers out there that do an excellent job, most likely your own , but I haven't come across them in my recent travels. In general I have been disappointed by ambitious systems, the last audio show in Sydney didn't demonstrate a single setup that stood out in this area - the best systems there had bass that just nicely blended with the rest of the spectrum, which in one sense is how it ought to be.

 

[fas42]

fas42: Taiko Drumming, Orchestral Bass Drum best demo tracks, et. al., bring 'em all over here (though I have many myself);
you are definitely welcome and you would be in for a treat! You won't hear stodgy, plodding and polite here, ever.

Thanks for the invite! But I doubt that it'll be happening soon ... . I tend to like pop recordings for this sort of thing, because the "hit" happens over and over again, . I remember having a music evening, and someone brought the Telarc Papa Doo Run Run album; the bass drum impact was obviously overdone, in balance with the rest of the sound, but it clobbered you, every time!

A couple of CDs I go for is Boney M hits, and ZZ Top's Afterburner - the quality of the bass lines on these albums tell a lot ...

With respect, I will disagree with your assertion that the only impactful parts of such strikes are in the frequencies
above those normally considered bass frequencies. Such strikes are broader in range and impact as far as what sums
up to be 'the strike' you feel. The frequency range(s), harmonics around the strike, etc...are also influenced not only
by size of the drum but how that head is tuned (many are variable), type of head, type of mallet or hammer, size
of same, etc....

Like 16hz lover, I've sat in the trumpet section of orchestras, and wind ensembles;
you get a true perspective as to what percussive effect in music is all about!

I agree that there is a huge variety in the tonality of the perceived sound, no problem there - and I love the intensity of that "percussive effect", that's what I'm after in my endeavours! The major difference is, I make no special effort to plumb the lower depths of the bass frequencies, to get it.

 

[SCAudiophile]

Love ZZ Top and alot of other rock, southern rock, prog-rock, techno, electronica, etc...as well! Listening to Neil Pert from Rush cut loose is also alot of fun!

 

[16hz lover]

Thanks for the invite! But I doubt that it'll be happening soon ... . I tend to like pop recordings for this sort of thing, because the "hit" happens over and over again, . I remember having a music evening, and someone brought the Telarc Papa Doo Run Run album; the bass drum impact was obviously overdone, in balance with the rest of the sound, but it clobbered you, every time!

A couple of CDs I go for is Boney M hits, and ZZ Top's Afterburner - the quality of the bass lines on these albums tell a lot ...


I agree that there is a huge variety in the tonality of the perceived sound, no problem there - and I love the intensity of that "percussive effect", that's what I'm after in my endeavours! The major difference is, I make no special effort to plumb the lower depths of the bass frequencies, to get it.

zephyr24069 and I have a different perspective than most all audiophiles, as we are both musicians (I've also been a trumpet player most of my life), and want to reproduce the realism of being "in" the orchestra, not what you would hear seated in the 20th row/ far from the impact zone of real world dynamics. The large orchestral drum wallops in the Telarc CD Trittico are centered close to 28z. Only when you have sat 3 feet in front of one of them, does your frame of reference forever change. Being a former drummer, once you sit behind a set of drums, or play in a band where you feel every note on stage ,not just hear it, you want to replicate that percussive effect with your stereo. Displacement is where percussive effect comes from, very simple physics. Small audiophile subs (REL, JL 112, etc). with limited displacement(please, no flames from the owners of these subs), will give you limited bass extension and dynamic slam. Same with pipe organ music. I worked as a pipe organ builder for 7 years. Going back home and trying to reproduce a recorded concert reveals system deficiencies. The myth in audio is that the bigger the subwoofer, the slower/mushy the bass is, but it is actually the inductance of the driver that determines tightness/accuracy. Interesting paper on this subject written by Dan Wiggins ( world famous speaker designer) :

http://www.yildiz.edu.tr/~ilkorur/WooferSpeed.pdf

Everyone likes a different sound though and has different taste in music, and 90% of the people have limited budgets to work with. Just like going from room to room at the CES Show, the high efficiency/tube guys from Japan would not play my Telarc pipe organ recordings as they knew their 6 1/2" woofers would bottom out, and burn up their voice coils with a 16z note held for 30 seconds Bach piece. Or the guy at Ocean Way sound with his 30K speakers that I got to bottom out the woofers on my first song. But to have a system that will reproduce ALL aspects of live music, sufficient displacement must be available.