Thor's Hammer

[LL21]

Interesting. I have spoken with one experienced audiophile who knows both well...he did not care for the original Wilson crossover and used to recommend others...but feels the current crossover is excellent and far superior to the older one.

As far as I remember the Watch Controller was designed by Richard Marsh, of Marsh Sound Design. The old WatchDog included the Watch controller and a MSD 400W amplifier - I know of someone who bought an used Watch Dog at a nice price just for the electronics!

I am not sure of the differences between current and older Watch Controllers.

 

[RBFC]

Seaton now offers stackable modular 18" subwoofer units too. He claims single-digit extension and a rolloff in response lower than his 15" models.

Lee

 

[RBFC]

Thank you, Lee, for your reply.

Even if there is unpredictable and possibly undesirable reinforcement or cancellation from the upper driver of the Thors, from the listening position I think the listener will have a sense of some musical information coming from that upper driver, no? That is all I would be aiming to achieve with the tall Thors as opposed to the shorter Gothams.

I was speaking of the response changes in-room due to the physical location of the upper bass driver, not really its interaction comb-filtering with the other bass driver nearer to the floor. Each driver with a different physical location from room boudaries will have a unique reaction with the room. The response of a stacked unit, of course, will behave as a single entity at the listening position since single-cabinet stacked woofers are inseparable. It may well be that a stacked unit produces smoother bass at the LP due to the upper woofer's greater distance from the floor and thus its effect on room nodes, etc.

Also, if your subs are not run up to higher (>80 Hz by classic opinion), you should not hear information coming from any of the drivers. In my opinion, well-set-up subs produce bass that is not locatable. I will say that I have not heard every iteration of woofer towers on the market, so obviously a limited opinion.

Lee

 

[Mike Lavigne]

I am not at all convinced that the Thor is the way to go. I am considering the Thor because the Wilson Watch Controller is flexible and its low pass filter starts at 150 Hz; it is passive so I could use an amp which matches my main amp (See David Karmeli posts advocating using the same type of amp for subwoofers and main speakers); if I want to experiment with the 150 Hz and down frequency range overlay of the Thors onto the Neolith drivers I would prefer not to use class D amplification; and they are tall, and would allow me sort of to implement the four column speaker concept.

starting subwoofer integration up in the mid bass is fine for Home Theatre, but if you are chasing ultimate high fidelity coherence the odds of slapping together disparate pieces from different manufacturers and getting complete integration through the mid bass will be very challenging. this is where most/all the music lives.

OTOH getting reasonable coherence in deep bass integration is more doable. you need a main speaker to use it's designed in integration above 50hz if possible. and then mess with the transition underneath that frequency. missing it a little down there will be much less frequently an issue unless you listen at high SPL's typically......then there is no escaping it.

as far as class D for deep bass; stay away from absolutes. if it sounds better then it is, if it does not then it's not. but there are so many variables to consider that insisting on A/B for deep bass will simply get in the way of success. if you take the signal from the main amplifier (ideal) then class D has clear advantages. if the deep bass signal is coming from an outboard crossover or preamp then I see the matching A/B amp relevance, but then the weakness (or character) of that outboard crossover (none are perfect) gets subtracted from any advantage of the matching amplifier. pick your poison. this is why people buy fully integrated full range speaker systems.

 

[microstrip]

(...)

as far as class D for deep bass; stay away from absolutes. if it sounds better then it is, if it does not then it's not. but there are so many variables to consider that insisting on A/B for deep bass will simply get in the way of success. if you take the signal from the main amplifier (ideal) then class D has clear advantages. if the deep bass signal is coming from an outboard crossover or preamp then I see the matching A/B amp relevance, but then the weakness (or character) of that outboard crossover (none are perfect) gets subtracted from any advantage of the matching amplifier. pick your poison. this is why people buy fully integrated full range speaker systems.

Wise words. +1!

 

[still-one]

Another option if you want stackable subs would be the REL G1's. I believe REL offers are a frame for stability. They not only look good the sound good too. I am not sure how they would work with your preferred crossover set-up.

 

[LL21]

SF Strads with REL Stacked Subs...quite cool. And agree they look good.

 

[Bruce B]

I've heard the Thor's in a couple of systems now. The Thor's and the JL Audio are the only subs I've heard that can give you the visceral impact of large bass or Chinese drums.

Dave Wilson uses the class A A/B Parasound A21 to power his Thor's.

 

[Ron Resnick]

starting subwoofer integration up in the mid bass is fine for Home Theatre, but if you are chasing ultimate high fidelity coherence the odds of slapping together disparate pieces from different manufacturers and getting complete integration through the mid bass will be very challenging. this is where most/all the music lives.

OTOH getting reasonable coherence in deep bass integration is more doable. you need a main speaker to use it's designed in integration above 50hz if possible. and then mess with the transition underneath that frequency. missing it a little down there will be much less frequently an issue unless you listen at high SPL's typically......then there is no escaping it.

as far as class D for deep bass; stay away from absolutes. if it sounds better then it is, if it does not then it's not. but there are so many variables to consider that insisting on A/B for deep bass will simply get in the way of success. if you take the signal from the main amplifier (ideal) then class D has clear advantages. if the deep bass signal is coming from an outboard crossover or preamp then I see the matching A/B amp relevance, but then the weakness (or character) of that outboard crossover (none are perfect) gets subtracted from any advantage of the matching amplifier. pick your poison. this is why people buy fully integrated full range speaker systems.

Thank you, Mike. I understand on all points. I agree with your concern about starting subwoofer integration up in the mid-bass, and I agree with staying away from absolutes. I, too, would much prefer a fully-integrated full range speaker system. Unfortunately, it does not seem that ML will be producing exactly what I would want anytime soon.

The 15" driver likely is the weakest part of the Neolith design, because it is being asked to do too much. The task of that sole 15" driver should be broken out and handled by a separate tower of 15" drivers. I am just brainstorming to try to figure out a way to accomplish that by dropping the internal 15" cone -8dB and grafting on the subwoofer towers.

I agree it would be a much more conventional solution if I were to use the Thors or a stack of the future MartinLogan BalancedForce 215s simply to supplement the Neolith from 50 Hz down.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Yes -- stacked REL G-1s are another plausible way to "graft" on subwoofer towers.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Dave Wilson uses the class A A/B Parasound A21 to power his Thor's.

Do you happen to know which amplifier Dave uses to power the full-range speakers to which his Thors are mated? (I am curious whether he mixes or matches.)

 

[Bruce B]

Do you happen to know which amplifier Dave uses to power the full-range speakers to which his Thors are mated? (I am curious whether he mixes or matches.)

He uses both the VTL Siegfried's and the D'agostina Momentums. Mostly, the VTL's.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Thank you, Bruce. It is interesting he is willing to mix tubes and solid-state.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Seaton now offers stackable modular 18" subwoofer units too. He claims single-digit extension and a rolloff in response lower than his 15" models.

Lee

I believe Mark is working on some audiophile-oriented subwoofers. The resulting products should be pretty spectacular.