Thor's Hammer

[audioguy]

I agree Frantz.

In fact I have been considering either 2 F113's and an F112 or 3 F112's or possibly even a pair of F212's as the new room won't be as big as my previous room

If you can be comfortable with them ending up with non-symmetrical positions in your room , I would still bet 3 F112' would give you better response than a single of anything (Including a single IFB --- IN MOST ROOMS). (or buy 4 F113's, solve the symmetry issue and put one near each corner to be measured for exact optimal position).

As to an IFB sub: When I built my room, I considered it but for the very same reasons I wouldn't use a single Thor, I preferred multiple subs.

As it turns out, for 25% of the cost of a single Thor, I get 4 well placed subs, incredibly clean headroom beyond my wildest imagination, almost 10,000 watts of power, 8 15 inch drivers and 4db's down at 5hz. My guess would be Steve can do close to the same thing for similar $ with some combination of JL subs.

Now, if I could have TWO (or more) IFB subs, that may be an entirely different story.

 

[microstrip]

I know the review very well.

I just thought that for the money (my money) a pair of Gotham subs could outperform the Thor's hammer. Certainly a pair of those plus amplification could easily set me back 2-3 times what the pair of Gotham subs cost me. I am not knocking the Thor. I am a die hard Wilson fan but for my ears, my budget and my room, I am very happy with the Gotham subs.

FWIW, in the new room that I am building I am probably going with a pair of Fathom F113's

I understand your point. I am not questioning any one choice - you said it all in the part I quoted in bold.

I want to make clear that I have almost no experience with such big subwoofer systems (just owned the WatchDog for sometime and some recent experience with two Martin Logan Descents in my system). I am just reading and questioning existing opinions and perhaps because Jacob Heilbrunn dedicated a long text to describe in a very objective way the performance of the Thor, I am now biased towards the Thor. Also his words truthfully write down some of the improvements I also perceived with subs.

 

[16hz lover]

Curious to know what brand of woofers he uses in this model. I think he was using the JBL 2445 in the WOW model.

 

[Bruce B]

Steve, I've heard the Thors several times and they continue to amaze me. Nothing even compares to them. You don't need to spend a lot of money for amps either. Dave uses the Parasound A21 and it's more than enough.

 

[LL21]

Steve, I've heard the Thors several times and they continue to amaze me. Nothing even compares to them. You don't need to spend a lot of money for amps either. Dave uses the Parasound A21 and it's more than enough.

I have never had the chance to hear the Thors...when you say nothing compares, can you give us a few more details? Is it simply the bass authority, clarity and attack...or does it also alter/enhance the sound in the upper registers dramatically more as well? I know that subs done right can do this...just curious if the Thors make a 'nothing else compares' improvement up there as well. (Also, what else have you heard that is even within spitting distance of this performance?)

 

[Ron Resnick]

Thors...when you say nothing compares, can you give us a few more details?

I too would be grateful for an elaboration of your impressions of the Thor.

 

[cjf]

While I'm sure this hammer is very impressive I can't imagine it would compete with multiple JL's scattered about a room at a fraction of the Thors cost and footprint. Especilly in terms of room FR smoothing/correction.

But, I suspect the Thors target customer is not concerned with such things in the first place and may even have several Thors to deal with the room smoothing aspect :b

 

[still-one]

While I'm sure this hammer is very impressive I can't imagine it would compete with multiple JL's scattered about a room at a fraction of the Thors cost and footprint. Especilly in terms of room FR smoothing/correction.

But, I suspect the Thors target customer is not concerned with such things in the first place and may even have several Thors to deal with the room smoothing aspect :b

I have heard systems with a pair of Thor's Hammers and with a pair of Gothem's. My choice would be Wilson's if cost was no object.

 

[Ron Resnick]

One of the criticisms of the MartinLogan Neolith is that the bass sounds like it is coming from the bottom third of the speaker (which it is). I do not hear this problem.

One way to ameliorate this problem would be to locate a tall bass information producer on the same plane (i.e., next to the outside edge of) of each Neolith. The Thor, at 60" tall, would satisfy this height requirement.

The Watch Controller could be set to a conventional crossover frequency of 30Hz to 40Hz. Or, I could attenuate by -4dB or -8dB the 15" subwoofer in the Neolith and set the crossover frequency of the Thors to 150 Hz and overlay the tall bass information output of the Thors over the two drivers (the 15" covers 60Hz and below, and the 12" covers 60Hz to 400Hz) in the Neolith. I think this would address the criticism of those who hear bass information coming only from the lower section of the Neolith.

 

[microstrip]

One of the criticisms of the MartinLogan Neolith is that the bass sounds like it is coming from the bottom third of the speaker (which it is). I do not hear this problem. (...)

It is a very interesting subject, but unhappily as far as I know there are no studies on the importance of subwoofers height. I think that most people who place subwoofers close to the ceiling do it for convenience, not for acoustic reasons.

 

[RBFC]

Having a subwoofer transducer, as in the stacked Wilson with "upper" woofer, placed away from a room boundary (floor) changes the way it interacts with the room. In some cases, this may improve bass response at the listening position in the same way that moving it away from the wall might. Reinforcement and cancellation exist in the vertical plane as well. So, it may not merely be a matter of a "tall" woofer producing "tall" bass.

Lee

 

[Ron Resnick]

I envision the Thors remaining firmly planted on the floor of my listening room. I did not mean to suggest I would mount them close to the ceiling.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Having a subwoofer transducer, as in the stacked Wilson with "upper" woofer, placed away from a room boundary (floor) changes the way it interacts with the room. In some cases, this may improve bass response at the listening position in the same way that moving it away from the wall might. Reinforcement and cancellation exist in the vertical plane as well. So, it may not merely be a matter of a "tall" woofer producing "tall" bass.

Lee

Thank you, Lee, for your reply.

Even if there is unpredictable and possibly undesirable reinforcement or cancellation from the upper driver of the Thors, from the listening position I think the listener will have a sense of some musical information coming from that upper driver, no? That is all I would be aiming to achieve with the tall Thors as opposed to the shorter Gothams.

 

[FrantzM]

Subwoofer integration is a little more complex. There is no doubt drivers have to do a lot with the quality of the bass but crossover point, Position in the room, phase and EQ play a greater role. I have heard several rather cheap subwoofers properly set-up, integrated and equalized do a much better job than a pair of extremely expensive subwoofers both subjectivel and objectively.
It seems you are willing to travel to audition there are people here that would give you a serious demo of what painful attention to detail with relatively inexpensive subwoofer can do. JonFo IB is a must on that matter . If you are convinced however that the Thor is the end-it-all when it comes to subwoofer then ... get the Thor. I am not of this opinion however.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Subwoofer integration is a little more complex. There is no doubt drivers have to do a lot with the quality of the bass but crossover point, Position in the room, phase and EQ play a greater role. I have heard several rather cheap subwoofers properly set-up, integrated and equalized do a much better job than a pair of extremely expensive subwoofers both subjectivel and objectively.
It seems you are willing to travel to audition there are people here that would give you a serious demo of what painful attention to detail with relatively inexpensive subwoofer can do. JonFo IB is a must on that matter . If you are convinced however that the Thor is the end-it-all when it comes to subwoofer then ... get the Thor. I am not of this opinion however.

I am not at all convinced that the Thor is the way to go. I am considering the Thor because the Wilson Watch Controller is flexible and its low pass filter starts at 150 Hz; it is passive so I could use an amp which matches my main amp (See David Karmeli posts advocating using the same type of amp for subwoofers and main speakers); if I want to experiment with the 150 Hz and down frequency range overlay of the Thors onto the Neolith drivers I would prefer not to use class D amplification; and they are tall, and would allow me sort of to implement the four column speaker concept.

 

[FrantzM]

I am not at all convinced that the Thor is the way to go. I am considering the Thor because the Wilson Watch Controller is flexible and its low pass filter starts at 150 Hz; it is passive so I could use an amp which matches my main amp (See David Karmeli posts advocating using the same type of amp for subwoofers and main speakers); if I want to experiment with the 150 Hz and down frequency range overlay of the Thors onto the Neolith drivers I would prefer not to use class D amplification; and they are tall, and would allow me sort of to implement the four column speaker concept.

Class D when it comes to bass seems to have all the advantages. I would suggest to keep an open mind. In the bass what you hear as "tuneful" is over 150 Hz and in most cases reproduced by the mains... where the subs should not play or so low in volume ...
It would be extremely valuable to call one of the people with substantial experience and familiarity with subwoofer integration. It does take some time to properly integrate subs with any speaker even more so with speaker of great distinction and bass capabilities such as the Neolith. It does require measurements, of that you can be certain, of course with lot of with-the-ears fine-tuning. While it is fun to learn on the job it is much more rewarding to avoid the mistakes and pitfalls and frustrations subwoofer integration entails. It seems you are set on the Neolith. Matching them with subwoofers ( notice the plural as in several ) is not only doable but would elevate your system to a supremely high level. it does require to shed some arrested ideas and not to fall in the traps of prejudices.. DSP/Digital in the bass only provides all the advantages you read about great bass and frankly none of the cons.. On that I believe the JL Gothams have a rather sophisticated internal crossover .. Of course you willnot run your main signal through them ...You make sure they are used only where they work the best: In the Bass and in the bass only .. You would have the best of both world .. The type of sound you love + the best bass possible completely integrated.
PM these guys and have a talk with them. I will avoid naming names but I think you know who they are.

 

[GaryProtein]

Ron, if you are considering crossovers, think about the Pass Labs XVR1.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Class D when it comes to bass seems to have all the advantages. I would suggest to keep an open mind. In the bass what you hear as "tuneful" is over 150 Hz and in most cases reproduced by the mains... where the subs should not play or so low in volume ...
It would be extremely valuable to call one of the people with substantial experience and familiarity with subwoofer integration. It does take some time to properly integrate subs with any speaker even more so with speaker of great distinction and bass capabilities such as the Neolith. It does require measurements, of that you can be certain, of course with lot of with-the-ears fine-tuning. While it is fun to learn on the job it is much more rewarding to avoid the mistakes and pitfalls and frustrations subwoofer integration entails. It seems you are set on the Neolith. Matching them with subwoofers ( notice the plural as in several ) is not only doable but would elevate your system to a supremely high level. it does require to shed some arrested ideas and not to fall in the traps of prejudices.. DSP/Digital in the bass only provides all the advantages you read about great bass and frankly none of the cons.. On that I believe the JL Gothams have a rather sophisticated internal crossover .. Of course you willnot run your main signal through them ...You make sure they are used only where they work the best: In the Bass and in the bass only .. You would have the best of both world .. The type of sound you love + the best bass possible completely integrated.
PM these guys and have a talk with them. I will avoid naming names but I think you know who they are.

Thank you for your concerns. I appreciate your cautionary points.

Because I want a subwoofer tower concept my class D alternatives are 1) a stack of future MartinLogan BalancedForce 215s, or 2) a custom Mark Seaton subwoofer tower system of stacks of three modules of dual-opposed 15" drivers. The amplifiers in both the ML and the Seaton are class D.

Yes, I know who they are.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Ron, if you are considering crossovers, think about the Pass Labs XVR1.

Thank you, Gary. I researched the Pass Labs crossover a few weeks ago. I know it is extremely flexible but the cumbersomeness of setting all of the filter poles with internal switching is a little unappealing.

If I go with the Thors I am comfortable with the Watch Controller.

 

[microstrip]

Thank you, Gary. I researched the Pass Labs crossover a few weeks ago. I know it is extremely flexible but the cumbersomeness of setting all of the filter poles with internal switching is a little unappealing.

If I go with the Thors I am comfortable with the Watch Controller.

As far as I remember the Watch Controller was designed by Richard Marsh, of Marsh Sound Design. The old WatchDog included the Watch controller and a MSD 400W amplifier - I know of someone who bought an used Watch Dog at a nice price just for the electronics!

I am not sure of the differences between current and older Watch Controllers.