Taralabs grandmaster evolution: new top of the line cables from Taralabs

[JackD201]

I don't think I misquoted you at all as I was referring to this "....pricing in the exotic market has no effect on consumer cars. None."

From an economic standpoint I really don't see the effect even within our industry. These same cable manufacturers still continue to produce lower priced offerings. This cable is exactly the La Ferrari, SLS SMG, M-car, Lexus F-car, Audio RS' etc. They are Halo statement pieces to up the Brand. The prices for the "bread and butter" products will always be subject to external downward pressure from competition.

I also think it goes both ways. Crazy priced products present a double edged sword. A lot of companies have found some success if not equal stature by offering comparable performance for less. I personally just got obsolesced a few months ago but I'm not dwelling on it. I just keep telling myself that my cables are as good today as they were yesterday. It's not like Prof Dumbledore showed up in the middle of the night and turned my OFC to lead.

 

[Andre Marc]

I don't think I misquoted you at all as I was referring to this "....pricing in the exotic market has no effect on consumer cars. None."

From an economic standpoint I really don't see the effect even within our industry. These same cable manufacturers still continue to produce lower priced offerings. This cable is exactly the La Ferrari, SLS SMG, M-car, Lexus F-car, Audio RS' etc. They are Halo statement pieces to up the Brand. The prices for the "bread and butter" products will always be subject to external downward pressure from competition.

I also think it goes both ways. Crazy priced products present a double edged sword. A lot of companies have found some success if not equal stature by offering comparable performance for less. I personally just got obsolesced a few months ago but I'm not dwelling on it. I just keep telling myself that my cables are as good today as they were yesterday. It's not like Prof Dumbledore showed up in the middle of the night and turned my OFC to lead.

My mention of Ferrari was to refute the notion that exotic cars and high end audio are somehow correlated in any way.
That was the only reason I made that comparison.

In fact, a tiny, tiny, tiny, number of Ferrari owners have high end audio systems. I know one with Sonos.

 

[JackD201]

A tiny, tiny, tiny number of people have stereos period. The technical term for what we are seeing in marketing used to be skimming. Sometime in the 90s it fell out of favour because of the negative connotation the term "skimming" implied, theft as opposed to taking the delicious fat from the top. Now the term is "Halo". Products meant to gain quick awareness, catch the early adopter, recoup R&D as quickly as possible with the fewest number of units. This is not an audio thing, this is not a car thing, a watch thing. It's a business thing.

My point is that it is not unique nor is it necessarily a negative thing for anybody except the guy that bought into it but felt he didn't get the commensurate value. The audio business operates within the same rules as any other.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

There is no analogy whatsoever. Ferarri's gross margin (15%) is actually lower than Volkswagen (18%).

i don't know about Ferarri's dealer margin.

however, VW's is south of 10%, more likely around 6-8% at MSRP averaged thru their line-up (i've seen their financial statements). and that includes any below the line money paid by the manufacturer not on the factory invoice. and note these margins are at list price. transaction prices are closer to invoice, and actual average gross margins are in the 1-3% range nation wide....plus below the line money.

no mass market vehicle has more than 10% best case. Mercedes and BMW and similar luxury brands are in the 10%-12% range and they are at the top.

OTOH the manufacturers all have 25% to 30% profit in their invoices to the dealers.

a car dealership has 5 departments to make a profit, many lose money in the new car department.

this is what happens when the manufacturers make more cars than the market can sell. there are times when there is scarcity, and gross profits do increase temporarily. but manufacturers do not allow that to go for very long. and yes, many times there are incentives, but the market quickly adjusts for those to drive the net transaction costs back close to invoice.

how does this relate to this thread? i'm not sure. but when someone reads that there is 18% profit in a mass market car when that is simply not even remotely close to true, then i feel a need to clear that up as i deal with this fairy tale daily and have to unscrew my customers from the ceiling.

 

[Andre Marc]

A tiny, tiny, tiny number of people have stereos period. The technical term for what we are seeing in marketing used to be skimming. Sometime in the 90s it fell out of favour because of the negative connotation the term "skimming" implied, theft as opposed to taking the delicious fat from the top. Now the term is "Halo". Products meant to gain quick awareness, catch the early adopter, recoup R&D as quickly as possible with the fewest number of units. This is not an audio thing, this is not a car thing, a watch thing. It's a business thing.

My point is that it is not unique nor is it necessarily a negative thing for anybody except the guy that bought into it but felt he didn't get the commensurate value. The audio business operates within the same rules as any other.

Great post Jack.

Let it be said that not ALL audio manufacturers engage in "halo" marketing. And again, as a disclaimer, companies are ABSOLUTELY free to charge what
they want for a cable, and buyers are ABSOLUTELY free to pony up or pass.

But as one poster said, claims of reinventing the wheel or establishing new performance parameters are certainly open to scrutiny, as they should be.

 

[JackD201]

True, not everyone does. True as well that in any campaign the burden of defending the price point falls squarely on the manufacturer. It can't all be about "The Story".

 

[Steve Williams]

Hi guys


let's try to put it in perspective. For those of us who live in California understand the meaning of uber high end when we look at property values and what you don't get for your buck

Case in point....the median price of a house in San Francisco is now $1M

Wonderful city to visit but do I want to live there

 

[Andre Marc]

Hi guys


let's try to put it in perspective. For those of us who live in California understand the meaning of uber high end when we look at property values and what you don't get for your buck

Case in point....the median price of a house in San Francisco is now $1M

Wonderful city to visit but do I want to live there

Steve, I went back to New York twice this year. How much do you think an apartment the size of your listening room costs?

I am sure you can guess. People are paying for a lifestyle.

 

[MylesBAstor]

i don't know about Ferarri's dealer margin.

however, VW's is south of 10%, more likely around 6-8% at MSRP averaged thru their line-up (i've seen their financial statements). and that includes any below the line money paid by the manufacturer not on the factory invoice. and note these margins are at list price. transaction prices are closer to invoice, and actual average gross margins are in the 1-3% range nation wide....plus below the line money.

no mass market vehicle has more than 10% best case. Mercedes and BMW and similar luxury brands are in the 10%-12% range and they are at the top.

OTOH the manufacturers all have 25% to 30% profit in their invoices to the dealers.

a car dealership has 5 departments to make a profit, many lose money in the new car department.

this is what happens when the manufacturers make more cars than the market can sell. there are times when there is scarcity, and gross profits do increase temporarily. but manufacturers do not allow that to go for very long. and yes, many times there are incentives, but the market quickly adjusts for those to drive the net transaction costs back close to invoice.

how does this relate to this thread? i'm not sure. but when someone reads that there is 18% profit in a mass market car when that is simply not even remotely close to true, then i feel a need to clear that up as i deal with this fairy tale daily and have to unscrew my customers from the ceiling.

Mike:

I'm curious. Does the bottom line include the loan interest the dealer pays the auto or lending company?

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Mike:

I'm curious. Does the bottom line include the loan interest the dealer pays the auto or lending company?

there is an expense line for 'floor plan expense' for both new and use car inventory. with the below 2% cost of money these days this line item is not particularly significant. however; if we ever have to pay the real cost of money again it will push marginal operators out of business. cheap money makes lots of things happen.

this expense can be greater than the profit per car in high interest rate periods.

 

[RogerD]

Hi guys


let's try to put it in perspective. For those of us who live in California understand the meaning of uber high end when we look at property values and what you don't get for your buck

Case in point....the median price of a house in San Francisco is now $1M

Wonderful city to visit but do I want to live there

Hmmm I was born in S.F. and some feel the techies and Chineese who launder their money by purchasing Bay Area RE are ruining the city. The one major point is S.F. land is finite,you can't say that about Uber cables,maybe right now you can,but in 6 months Tara will have competition,no doubt.

 

[RogerD]

there is an expense line for 'floor plan expense' for both new and use car inventory. with the below 2% cost of money these days this line item is not particularly significant. however; if we ever have to pay the real cost of money again it will push marginal operators out of business. cheap money makes lots of things happen.

this expense can be greater than the profit per car in high interest rate periods.

Cheap money inflates assets,creates bubbles and breeds corruption. Governments love it,because it removes culpability.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Cheap money inflates assets,creates bubbles and breeds corruption. Governments love it,because it removes culpability.

ride the wave baby!

yahooooo!

 

[MylesBAstor]

there is an expense line for 'floor plan expense' for both new and use car inventory. with the below 2% cost of money these days this line item is not particularly significant. however; if we ever have to pay the real cost of money again it will push marginal operators out of business. cheap money makes lots of things happen.

this expense can be greater than the profit per car in high interest rate periods.

Interesting! Thanks Mike.

 

[RogerD]

ride the wave baby!

yahooooo!

Yep....sometimes the feeling the world will end soon,because nobody gives a **** anymore.

 

[microstrip]

I recently had the pleasure of listening to a great system costing around 400-500k using around 100k in cables. I am sure that downgrading the whole cable set for an inferior type would downgrade its performance seriously. It is my opinion, YMMV

 

[Sammy T]

Anybody have Pictures of the Tara Labs Grandmaster Evolution interconnects ? I would like to see what the dual mono block HFX's look like.

 

[FrantzM]

Good you wear your Casio and I'll keep my IWC and Panerai.

This is indicative of what's wrong in the world and our McDonald's mindset. There is no appreciation of quality. Soon We'll hear how McDonalds is the same as Boulet since they're just protein, carbs and fat anyway. Plus we can throw in a side order of jealousy.

Myles

Knee-jerk reaction.I love a good watch but am fully conscious that its purpose is not to tell time. It is a status symbol, an expensive object to which I can attach some rational. I love my watches too .. I have a few now but when it comes to tell the time , they take a back seat to my Quartz timepieces ...

Jealousy?Are you real?!?

 

[FrantzM]

I could be wrong, but I think Franz is saying that the price of an ultra expensive items can be explained in part by "utility value" and in part by "luxury value" (i.e. status / snob appeal). Ferrari is mainly utility, and a $5,000 designer purse and $100,000 watch is almost a 100% luxury good. He then makes the point that while originally prices of audio equipment were almost 100% explained by "utility value", many ultra expensive audio items are now developed for and marketed to the "luxury" market, probably targeting the nouveau riche in places like China and Russia.

I don't think audiophiles lamenting this trend are necessarily reflecting a McDonalds mindsets, nor exhibiting jealousy at not being able to afford ultra-expensive "luxury" goods.

Thanks edorr..

Really? I do. Perhaps you need to go back and reread more of the posts where people were dissing MikeL's system. Or how every time an expensive component comes up, the same people come out and trash it.

No it's about craftsmanship. Ever see what goes into and how long it's takes to build a repeater? Same with audio. If only we/high-end audio could upsize production and slam stuff out in China. Oh sorry, some are trying. We know what has happened to the first companies trying to do that.

I am jumping somehow to conclusions, that it seems that you are addressing me: but you would show me where I am dissing MikeL system? Just once? If you expect this WBF to become an echo chamber you are mistaken. As long as I participate i will criticize and voice my opinion. You are free to do the same.

I repeat that a $42K Audio cable is a luxury item and I will repeat that there is nothing wrong with acquiring a Luxury item. I will however criticize the implication of automatic superiority because of price that has become the reflex in High End Audio: The most expensive components are be perceived as the best in an almost automatic fashion. It is not so and can be easily proven not to be so.
As for dissing China go ahead they chug along putting out some serious High End Audio items and if you were to pay real attention to history you will be reminded that not too long ago the same things were said about Japanese goods. My oh My! How times have changed ... The most reliable Luxury cars ? Those made by Toyota . And they are at the top of the chain for most reliable cars Period, no adjective necessary.

I am still waiting for the $100K cable. I know my wait won't be long .. 2015? 2016? it will of course be the superior of all the cables presently on the market

 

[MylesBAstor]

Thanks edorr..



I am jumping somehow to conclusions, that it seems that you are addressing me: but you would show me where I am dissing MikeL system? Just once? If you expect this WBF to become an echo chamber you are mistaken. As long as I participate i will criticize and voice my opinion. You are free to do the same.

I repeat that a $42K Audio cable is a luxury item and I will repeat that there is nothing wrong with acquiring a Luxury item. I will however criticize the implication of automatic superiority because of price that has become the reflex in High End Audio: The most expensive components are be perceived as the best in an almost automatic fashion. It is not so and can be easily proven not to be so.
As for dissing China go ahead they chug along putting out some serious High End Audio items and if you were to pay real attention to history you will be reminded that not too long ago the same things were said about Japanese goods. My oh My! How times have changed ... The most reliable Luxury cars ? Those made by Toyota . And they are at the top of the chain for most reliable cars Period, no adjective necessary.

I am still waiting for the $100K cable. I know my wait won't be long .. 2015? 2016? it will of course be the superior of all the cables presently on the market

My, my we're feeling guilty. No, please reread my post. I didn't say you dissed Mike's system but that someone here had and received a warning from the mods.

By the by, name one top audio product made in China? Certainly, we can come up with top products from the rest of the world --even The Ukraine -- but basically only inexpensive electronics and speakers from China. Any bets on reliability?