Sometimes you just know....

[esldude]

I could not disagree with you more. The people that come on the thread and sidetrack to some other agenda and then they are insulting to me that is BS.
Sorry if the WBF thread police want to be so liberal that anyone can say anything that is off topic and stupid and say they have the right to say it.
If he wants to talk about the sound of the system or the amp or anything else that might in some universe be helpful then please go ahead.
I dont have to tolerate ignorance and rude behavior on something just because YOU say so!!!

FrantzM posted more or less what I would have only he said better.

Those who question the why of something don't love music any less than those who don't.

For instance, you described this new amp as amazing. What do you attribute that to? If this is an example you consider rude, then I am afraid FrantzM is right, you just wanted a monologue with those agreeing how wonderful it must be.

If the amp sounds amazing, it must sound different. If it sounds different it must do something different with the signal it is fed. There are those of us very passionate about music who have interest in such things. Audio electronics is pretty well fleshed out technically. So what would be going on to make this new product so amazing? I am guessing you don't know, and that is fine. If it sounds amazing you of course don't have to know why. But to broach the subject of why is hardly rude or off topic.

The side topic of the room is a bit off topic though not unusual with the common thread drift. As you mention minimal room treatment in the first post it isn't even wildly off topic. And yes those of us a bit skeptical will roll eyes a bit when someone posts about this new, expensive AR amp with a new tube and sometimes you just know it is going to be great and it was. If you think even bringing up such dissenting views is rude then again you wanted a monologue with only positive comments by those who solemnly agree with you.

Now with you being a dealer the truly cynical could easily think your post was a subtle manner of promoting a product in the general audio sphere on the internet to help create a buzz about it. I don't think that. I think you truly loved the amp and wanted to spread the good news for the benefit of others who might be considering such a product. Either way you create a buzz, but I am crediting you with only wishing to create a buzz as a sort of public service to other passionate audiophiles. You clearly placed a disclaimer right at the start of the thread.

 

[Elliot G.]

FrantzM posted more or less what I would have only he said better.

Those who question the why of something don't love music any less than those who don't.

For instance, you described this new amp as amazing. What do you attribute that to? If this is an example you consider rude, then I am afraid FrantzM is right, you just wanted a monologue with those agreeing how wonderful it must be.

If the amp sounds amazing, it must sound different. If it sounds different it must do something different with the signal it is fed. There are those of us very passionate about music who have interest in such things. Audio electronics is pretty well fleshed out technically. So what would be going on to make this new product so amazing? I am guessing you don't know, and that is fine. If it sounds amazing you of course don't have to know why. But to broach the subject of why is hardly rude or off topic.

The side topic of the room is a bit off topic though not unusual with the common thread drift. As you mention minimal room treatment in the first post it isn't even wildly off topic. And yes those of us a bit skeptical will roll eyes a bit when someone posts about this new, expensive AR amp with a new tube and sometimes you just know it is going to be great and it was. If you think even bringing up such dissenting views is rude then again you wanted a monologue with only positive comments by those who solemnly agree with you.

Now with you being a dealer the truly cynical could easily think your post was a subtle manner of promoting a product in the general audio sphere on the internet to help create a buzz about it. I don't think that. I think you truly loved the amp and wanted to spread the good news for the benefit of others who might be considering such a product. Either way you create a buzz, but I am crediting you with only wishing to create a buzz as a sort of public service to other passionate audiophiles. You clearly placed a disclaimer right at the start of the thread.

I went out of my way to answer the English guy about the room and my thoughts about it. I did it politely and as completely as i could. He insulted me! I am not trying nor to I want to create a monologue or to censor any discussion about anything however room measurements have nothing to do with Priaptors system or this amp. I have been doing this for a very long time and what guys like this dont get is the placement of the speaker IN the room is what counts. I am not nor did I ever say that the room doesn't count , it does. The factor of the room and the placement of the speaker in the room, the set up, is what counts. I dont and wont separate these factors for that in my opinion is just a waste of time. I have a lot of years invested with many products and rooms and this is the way I learned and was taught by many of the HE's best. If he doesn't agree that is fine start another thread about measurements which almost all serious listeners know tells a part of the story but not the whole story. I refuse anymore every time I post to take BS from those who dont get it and probably dont know what they are doing.
We dont measure music any more than we measure the taste of pizza but if that's his gig then go do it with someone else. If you want to go listen to the amp I think you night find it worth the trip if not then do as you see all see fit.
I love music and I tire quickly of the ignorant and the fools and I old enough to recognize then when i see them and dont need to accept their insults.
this topic has already been ruined so at this point I am out

 

[Elliot G.]

I don't recollect insulting you, speaker and listener placement are important parameters , but knowing exactly how your loudspeakers and room interact is tremendously important and the results are often revelatory.
I would recommend acoustic measurement to anyone who is serious about high fidelity
Keith.

Now I can sleep because you have spoken.
You did insult me and you insinuated that you know better even though you have never been in this room nor heard any of the gear. Alas that is the internet!

 

[RBFC]

It is not possible to limit each and every discussion on this public forum to only responses which the original poster desires to read. As long as responses abide by the Terms of Service, a forum can be crippled by selective pruning and editorialization of discussions. While it's understandable that having one's "parade rained on" is unpleasant at times, it may be that an "offensive" post actually stimulates deeper examination of the topic at hand. This is a difficult line to tread. Members may place other members on the "ignore" list, so that their posts are not visible. The admin team, working for free, does not always see each post before it has the opportunity to offend someone. Also, being less personally-involved on that topic, we may not feel the same irritation upon reading a post in question. Please understand that these decisions are not easy, no matter which way we choose to handle them. It seems that someone is always offended. (Our PM boxes are proof of the prevalence of this dilemma.) Please attempt to hold conversations with some tolerance in mind; we may not get only the type of responses we hoped for.

Between removing a few thousand spammers and false registrations, and removing posts from spammers which the forum membership never see, we are actually quite busy keeping the forum as "clean" as possible. It would be appreciated if we all remember the work that we don't see.

Lee

Again, I am thrilled that Priaptor and Elliot had a wonderful listening session. I'm equally happy that the new amplifier brought newfound pleasure to the table. When a "game-changer" is announced like this, the membership WILL flock to ask quite a few questions, as we all get very interested in knowing the hows & whys.

Lee

 

[microstrip]

IMHO measurement discussions should be moved to a separate thread.

Elliot brought us his findings about system and room setup, that are shared by many dealers, distributors and manufacturers. Being an experienced man he referred he knew about Transparent Audio approach " I know of both. Transparent Audio has the latter" and was clear it is not what he is talking about. His experience is valuable to most members of this forum. Why insisting debating in this thread something he is not wanting?

I would be much more interested in knowing what he thinks about the different placement methodologies I have heard about, such as the Cardas, the Wilson or the Sumiko.

And yes, I am jealous about a room that is 26 by 32 with 12 foot ceilings. Long ago I have had my system in a 16 by 21 room with 12 foot ceiling in an old house and I know what I miss now.

 

[Priaptor]

It is not possible to limit each and every discussion on this public forum to only responses which the original poster desires to read. As long as responses abide by the Terms of Service, a forum can be crippled by selective pruning and editorialization of discussions. While it's understandable that having one's "parade rained on" is unpleasant at times, it may be that an "offensive" post actually stimulates deeper examination of the topic at hand. This is a difficult line to tread. Members may place other members on the "ignore" list, so that their posts are not visible. The admin team, working for free, does not always see each post before it has the opportunity to offend someone. Also, being less personally-involved on that topic, we may not feel the same irritation upon reading a post in question. Please understand that these decisions are not easy, no matter which way we choose to handle them. It seems that someone is always offended. (Our PM boxes are proof of the prevalence of this dilemma.) Please attempt to hold conversations with some tolerance in mind; we may not get only the type of responses we hoped for.

Between removing a few thousand spammers and false registrations, and removing posts from spammers which the forum membership never see, we are actually quite busy keeping the forum as "clean" as possible. It would be appreciated if we all remember the work that we don't see.

Lee

Again, I am thrilled that Priaptor and Elliot had a wonderful listening session. I'm equally happy that the new amplifier brought newfound pleasure to the table. When a "game-changer" is announced like this, the membership WILL flock to ask quite a few questions, as we all get very interested in knowing the hows & whys.

Lee

Yes Lee this is true but it is also trolling. Elliot did nothing other than voice his experience. The other guy inserted, with great hubris, how much better it would have sounded if we measured the room.

Lee that is trolling and absurd. The troll had no clue whether or not it would have made a difference but made a statement of fact about something he is clueless about, namely my room and setup. So when someone goes off subject like that, in this case I have to support Elliot (no matter how much it hurts) because the guy was just starting trouble and trolling.

 

[still-one]

I don't recollect insulting you, speaker and listener placement are important parameters , but knowing exactly how your loudspeakers and room interact is tremendously important and the results are often revelatory.
I would recommend acoustic measurement to anyone who is serious about high fidelity
Keith.

That is a different topic altogether. You are trying to make something as simple as Amp "A" in room "X with associated gear "Y" sounds better than AMP "B" in room "X" with associated gear "Y". Now that equation would be different if variables "A" & "B" were speakers, then you could have jumped in about room interaction. In the OP "X" and "Y" are fixed.

 

[RBFC]

Howie,

I would always prefer that discussions remain on topic, with little stray from the subject. This presentation makes the forum easier to navigate. That said, we cannot simply punish or ban those who post an off-topic thought. As I read through the thread before offering any comments, it was apparent that Elliot was actually the one who resorted to name-calling. (Check for yourself). Because the thread was partially derailed by the "measurements" comments, I did not immediately take action regarding these names. I had hope that everyone would get back on track, since there were problems caused by both "sides". All parties involved are valued members of WBF, and are all responsible for providing good info here. I hope you (and all others) can see how difficult it is to value one side over the other.

That said, I see no reason for any of the parties to needlessly escalate this situation, nor to leave the forum, etc. I hope this fades quietly and you provide more impressions of the new amp as you have more time with it.

Lee

Yes Lee this is true but it is also trolling. Elliot did nothing other than voice his experience. The other guy inserted, with great hubris, how much better it would have sounded if we measured the room.

Lee that is trolling and absurd. The troll had no clue whether or not it would have made a difference but made a statement of fact about something he is clueless about, namely my room and setup. So when someone goes off subject like that, in this case I have to support Elliot (no matter how much it hurts) because the guy was just starting trouble and trolling.

 

[PeterA]

DISCLAIMER - I do work in the Industry and I am currently employed for a dealer that does sell the following product. I am not here to promote either ARC or my store. I am not trying to sell anything to anyone here although I would be happy to assist if I can.

Sometimes in life when you see, hear or taste something you just know. Last evening was one of the special occasions for me. Early last week we received the new Audio Research GS-150 amplifier. I called my friend and client for the last 40 years and asked him if he would be interested in trying it. I dropped it off at his home on Wednesday and we made plans to listen on Sunday evening and have dinner.
We sat he turned on the music and as the title says sometimes you just know. My friend has a huge system and its something we have been working on and dialing in for the last couple of years. It is IMHO special. I have only in my long audio career heard a few of these. One never hears this at a showroom , or a show it has to be in a permanent situation in a good room. His room is 26 by 32 with 12 foot ceilings. There is minimal room treatment and that is to say it doesn't need it. he does not have a room with 250k of alterations, traps, diffusers etc. Its a large room upstairs in a large home.
The sound of this product when inserted into the Nola Concert Grand Golds, ARC REF-10, MSB Diamond DAC, etc. was nothing less than amazing. It is not that he did not have a quality amp before. It is not it blew us way. It just like the Sirens sweetly singing was irresistible. It invited you in and once there you did not want to leave. We listened to music being feed by computer, some high res, some red book to three hours of uninterrupted joy. We listened to rick, folk, jazz, and classical.
it DID NOT matter.
The music engulfed us. It was one of the amazing GMIA'S. I believe that this is a classic. It is something new and it is the first implementation of the new KT-150 tube. I suggest if you love music and you have a system that works with a tube amp and you have the proper associated gear that you invest a few minutes and take a trip, sometimes you just know..
Have fun, i am not a reviewer and in fact for the most part dislike what has happened with all of them. This is a personal observation by a music lover and the home of another music lover that has similar tastes but a much larger budget than I
Peace

"Back to the Future- the death of the gearhead!
I first want to congratulate my friend on what he has accomplished, a system that produces sound that one wants to sit in front and not get up, not go to the bathroom, not stop for dinner and worthy of falling asleep in the chair rather than shut it off. I think that during my many years involved with audio both in the Industry and as a hobbyist I have only had the pleasure to listen to a handful of truly amazing systems. I think this is sad by the way since I have heard thousands. I have heard many good ones by the way but there is a very large difference between the the good and the great. in my over 40 years I have only heard two systems, just two in consumers homes that I can say were special. I believe that many fall in love with the gear and a handful of "audiophile recordings" and think this is the holy grail. They love the chase, the gear, the change but dont really understand music. I think in some regards we all have fallen into the trap. The expectation that the next piece, the next change is the "silver bullet" that piece that will bring me nirvana. I believe that to many get lost in this chase, a chase that is like searching for mysteries without any clues. I have always felt that the set up and the room are the more important skill to master. I almost always feel when I hear something that it is not set up right, the speakers are not quite coupled in the room. I think that most audiophiles pull the trigger to change without ever getting it right first. My friend Priaptor finally got it. It did not happen over night. He has made the chase ( not alone ). He has put his money where is insanity is ( LOL). This time however he has put in his own effort and time to make the subtle changes and to meet the challenges of his space to get it right. I mean very right. We have worked together for a very long time. I have tried my best to advise and help him but always told him he needs to learn and to experiment to truly learn. No dealer, no friend can spend the time in his room that it takes to get it right, to learn the space conclusively to make the little moves to find the magic. This friends you must do alone, me in my house you in yours. In all the years I have done this virtually no one is willing to pay someone to sit and listen in their room for days and weeks to get it dialed in. This is what it takes!!! Harry Pearson did, Transparent Karen Sumner and staff did, a old friend in Montreal did and a few others I know.
The audiophiles expectation that a show system or that in a showroom set up in a few hours will produce the true color of a system is not realistic and in fact just plain wrong. It takes much more time that that. Ask anyone that has dome a show and it is usually the last day the system sounds best, a little more experience makes it better but its not enough to make it perfect and perfect is what we seek. I know that perfect is not possible but perfect in my room is, or yours, it takes more effort than money but sadly it takes a lot of that as well these days.
So Priaptor your Nola Concert Grands , REF-10, REF 75 with KT 150 tubes, MSB Diamond and your server , cables power etc are done right and I for one want to congratulate your accomplishment because I know what it took to get there.
Bravo Howie you deserve it.
Enjoy"

Elliot, This must be a great system because you also described it enthusiastically back in June. The first quote is about the new AR GS-150 which replaces the REF 75 in the second quote. Can you describe what it is about the GS-150 that made you "just know" it was better than the REF 75 in that system?

 

[Bobvin]

I expected a lot more comments like the last, e.g. What did you hear? Can you point to anything in particular? Compared to Ref75 with KT150, did you attribute the difference to more power? I myself did catch the phrase "it is not the amp blew us away" and interpreted the original post as one more subjective than objective, particularly as it was a brand new, not fully broken in amp, and it was just a single night's listening session. I also expected perhaps more comments such as "I will look forward to the opportunity to hear the amp myself."

I honestly don't understand how the discussion went to room measurements and the related digression? It seems to me someone totally missed the point of the original post, and stayed on that tack even though the course clearly led to the thread crashing on the rocks?

???

 

[PeterA]

I expected a lot more comments like the last, e.g. What did you hear? Can you point to anything in particular? Compared to Ref75 with KT150, did you attribute the difference to more power? I myself did catch the phrase "it is not the amp blew us away" and interpreted the original post as one more subjective than objective, particularly as it was a brand new, not fully broken in amp, and it was just a single night's listening session. I also expected perhaps more comments such as "I will look forward to the opportunity to hear the amp myself."

I honestly don't understand how the discussion went to room measurements and the related digression? It seems to me someone totally missed the point of the original post, and stayed on that tack even though the course clearly led to the thread crashing on the rocks?

???

I agree. The cynical readers may just interpret these two threads started by Elliot G. as a dealer complimenting his client's system that his expertise helped create at a thinly veiled attempt to drum up more business and advertise/promote the AR products.

However, I think Elliot is being a bit more genuine here and really just wants to share his experience of what he thinks is a great product and a well put together system. The problem may be in the approach. I wonder if the two threads would have been more effective and generated more on-topic discussion if Priaptor himself had started them and described why the system, and this amp in particular, sound so good.

"Sometimes you just know...." encourages an explanation about how one knows and why, either in an objective or subjective way. And a photo of the system in the room would really help. Aren't people interested in learning more?

 

[FrantzM]

I agree. The cynical readers may just interpret these two threads started by Elliot G. as a dealer complimenting his client's system that his expertise helped create at a thinly veiled attempt to drum up more business and advertise/promote the AR products.

However, I think Elliot is being a bit more genuine here and really just wants to share his experience of what he thinks is a great product and a well put together system. The problem may be in the approach. I wonder if the two threads would have been more effective and generated more on-topic discussion if Priaptor himself had started them and described why the system, and this amp in particular, sound so good.

"Sometimes you just know...." encourages an explanation about how one knows and why, either in an objective or subjective way. And a photo of the system in the room would really help. Aren't people interested in learning more?

Doesn't require cynicism to ponder such .. methink

 

[thedudeabides]

I would recommend acoustic measurement to anyone who is serious about high fidelity
Keith.

I've been very serious about audio / hi fidelity for some 35 years.

I've never had my room "measured".

 

[rsorren1]

Elliot, Howie,
Thanks for the mini review of the new ARC GS-150. My system consists of Alexia, MSB Diamond stack, ARC Ref Anniversary, and Ref 210s with KT 120s. I would appreciate reading the thoughts of others who have actually heard the GS-150. My dealer is an ARC dealer so I look forward to further listening notes.

 

[Steve Williams]

Elliot, Howie,
Thanks for the mini review of the new ARC GS-150. My system consists of Alexia, MSB Diamond stack, ARC Ref Anniversary, and Ref 210s with KT 120s. I would appreciate reading the thoughts of others who have actually heard the GS-150. My dealer is an ARC dealer so I look forward to further listening notes.

I'm interested to know if Howie and E have compared this amp to the Ref 75 and how they differ sonically. I think I read on this thread somewhere that the amp is $20K. How much is the Ref 75 and is it a fair comparison to the GS-150 wrt price and sonics

Guys as to measurements and room treatments, E did agree that it is paramount but IMO all he did was post his general impressions of his listening experience. Certainly measurements are critical to those who care. I have no heartburn over his desire to give people his sonic impression which sounded very favorable. All that mattered to them both was just the magic of the moment

I do agree with microstrip that the whole notion of room measurements and room correction is a totally different topic to the OP and should have been a new thread. I am happy to see that there is now such a thread here

 

[marty]

"I'm interested to know if Howie and E have compared this amp to the Ref 75 and how they differ sonically. I think I read on this thread somewhere that the amp is $20K. How much is the Ref 75 and is it a fair comparison to the GS-150 wrt price and sonics"

Steve, I'm kind of curious about this as well. In post #33, it was said the Ref 150 was 13K. If the GS 150 is 20K, then does that mean that ARC considers this the better 150w/channel amp de facto? And if so, isn't it odd they would retain the "Reference" label for they Ref 150. As I recall, The "Ref" moniker was always used to denote their flagship models. I guess we'll just have to wait for a "reliable" reviewer to do the comparison (and to the Ref 75 as well).

 

[Steve Williams]

"I'm interested to know if Howie and E have compared this amp to the Ref 75 and how they differ sonically. I think I read on this thread somewhere that the amp is $20K. How much is the Ref 75 and is it a fair comparison to the GS-150 wrt price and sonics"

Steve, I'm kind of curious about this as well. In post #33, it was said the Ref 150 was 13K. If the GS 150 is 20K, then does that mean that ARC considers this the better 150w/channel amp de facto? And if so, isn't it odd they would retain the "Reference" label for they Ref 150. As I recall, The "Ref" moniker was always used to denote their flagship models. I guess we'll just have to wait for a "reliable" reviewer to do the comparison (and to the Ref 75 as well).

That was precisely why I was asking.

 

[microstrip]

"I'm interested to know if Howie and E have compared this amp to the Ref 75 and how they differ sonically. I think I read on this thread somewhere that the amp is $20K. How much is the Ref 75 and is it a fair comparison to the GS-150 wrt price and sonics"

Steve, I'm kind of curious about this as well. In post #33, it was said the Ref 150 was 13K. If the GS 150 is 20K, then does that mean that ARC considers this the better 150w/channel amp de facto? And if so, isn't it odd they would retain the "Reference" label for they Ref 150. As I recall, The "Ref" moniker was always used to denote their flagship models. I guess we'll just have to wait for a "reliable" reviewer to do the comparison (and to the Ref 75 as well).

If we look at the ARC Galileo pictures available at the MonoandStereo site http://www.monoandstereo.com/2014/05/audio-research-galileo-line-new.html the GS 150 looks like a REF150 (two pairs of power tubes per channel) with VU meters. Most probably the design was optimized for the KT150's, the REF150 was designed with the KT120's. Although the site refers to the D79 design inspiration when I saw it from the back I thought about McInstosh ...

 

[dmnc02]

If we look at the ARC Galileo pictures available at the MonoandStereo site http://www.monoandstereo.com/2014/05/audio-research-galileo-line-new.html the GS 150 looks like a REF150 (two pairs of power tubes per channel) with VU meters. Most probably the design was optimized for the KT150's, the REF150 was designed with the KT120's. Although the site refers to the D79 design inspiration when I saw it from the back I thought about McInstosh ...

Interestingly, the output tubes in that picture look more like KT120 than KT150.

 

[microstrip]

Interestingly, the output tubes in that picture look more like KT120 than KT150.

More recent photos show the KT150 - I used this one to show the back. ARC specifications say:

SLEW RATE
13 volts/microsecond.

RISE TIME
2.0 microseconds.

HUM & NOISE
Less than 0.1mV RMS – 114dB below rated output (IHF weighted, input shorted).Controls: Rotary selector for tube bias, Power on/off, fan speed, auto shut-off on/defeat, RS232, 12V trigger

POWER SUPPLY ENERGY STORAGE
Approximately 1040 joules.

POWER REQUIREMENTS
105-125VAC 60Hz (210-250VAC 50Hz) 730 watts at rated output, 900 watts maximum, 420 watts idle.

TUBES REQUIRED
4 – Matched pair KT150 – Power Output; 4 – 6H30 Driver.

DIMENSIONS
19" (48.3 cm) W x 9 3/8" (23.8 cm) H x 22 3/4" (57.8 cm) D.

WEIGHT
TBA