New BADA DAC; DSD Debunked?

[edorr]

Berkeley Audio is announcing a new DAC:

http://cybwiz.blogspot.co.uk/2013/12/berkeley-audio-design-alpha-dac.html

It ships with an offline DSD to PCM converter that runs on a PC

From the announcement:
"Careful consideration was given to providing the highest possible reproduction of DSD files by the Alpha DAC Reference Series. 99% of modern DAC’s, including the Alpha Reference Series use mult-bit D/A converters because they provide better performance than 1-bit converters – even those who advertise “native” DSD compatibility. So, at some point, the 1-bit DSD stream must be converted to multi-bit for all of those DAC’s.

We could, like many other manufacturers, convert 1-bit DSD to multi-bit within the Alpha DAC Reference Series and show “DSD” in the front panel display. That would be the easiest approach from a marketing perspective. But that would also mean increasing the amount of processing in the DAC during playback which would degrade audio quality, and audio quality is the reason the Alpha Reference Series exists."

MY TAKE ON THIS:
They are basically saying, we don't do true 1-bit DSD, never have and never will, and 99% of manufacturers claiming they do, don't really do native DSD because they convert to multi-bit, which sounds better anyway. I guess the "1%" That does true native 1-bit DSD would be likes of EMM Labs. This must sound like a bit of heresy in the rapidly growing church of DSD converts......

It also appears they are suggesting for the 99% of multi bit DACs parading as DSD dacs (which would include my MSB), you are better off converting offline to High Rez PCM, because it offloads processing duties from the DAC. This would make eminent sense to me, and would be consistent with my experience that (on my MSB DAC anyway) DSD buys you absolutely nothing high rez PCM cannot deliver.

ANY THOUGHTS?

 

[ack]

I've heard about this DAC for a while now - last time this past Saturday, in fact - glad to see it come to fruition. I am also glad they are taking the only-PCM route, something I personally have advocated for a long time. Having said that, I suspect they are doing that to cut cost and avoid having to include two properly-designed digital engines into one DAC.

 

[wisnon]

How is DSD debunked?

This solution is MOST definitely NOT native DSD, rather a classy DSD to PCM decimation. All that is needed is analog filtration for DSD. This is marketing propaganda. LoL

This is just high power PCM conversion. I am not even sure this is better offline upsampler than the PCM to PCM Arc Prediction software from PeterSt xxHigh end, used with his Phasure NOS1 Dac.

This BA crew is the same that did the legendary PM-2, so they are barely scratching thesurface of possibilities all these years later:

http://www.goodwinshighend.com/manufacturers/pacific_microsonics/pacific_microsonics_model_two.htm




Yeah $23K used!!! http://www.ebay.com/itm/Pacific-Mic...339?pt=US_Other_Pro_Audio&hash=item27d874656b


Pacific Microsonics Model 2

 

[edorr]

How is DSD debunked?

This solution is MOST definitely NOT native DSD, rather a classy DSD to PCM decimation. All that is needed is analog filtration for DSD. This is marketing propaganda. LoL

This is just high power PCM conversion. I am not even sure this is better offline upsampler than the PCM to PCM Arc Prediction software from PeterSt xxHigh end, used with his Phasure NOS1 Dac.

This BA crew is the same that did the legendary PM-2, so they are barely scratching thesurface of possibilities all these years later:

http://www.goodwinshighend.com/manufacturers/pacific_microsonics/pacific_microsonics_model_two.htm




Yeah $23K used!!! http://www.ebay.com/itm/Pacific-Mic...339?pt=US_Other_Pro_Audio&hash=item27d874656b


Pacific Microsonics Model 2

It does not debunk DSD per se, but debunks the idea that "DSD" capable DACs with internal multi bit architecture (i.e. the vast majority) will sound any better playing DSD than PCM.

 

[microstrip]

Unfortunately, the provoking but inaccurate tittle of this thread risks sending us into a fight between DSD and PCM partisans, ignoring the more significant technical facts of the BADA newsletter. DSD is not only a delivery format - it is also an encoding system that according to the experts has with some specific sound characteristics. IMHO the main question is knowing what implementation serves better the format in reproduction.

Multibit can be anything over 1 bit - the marketing department of BADA exploits this ambiguity. I think that this is one of the points where we could focus our attention, ignoring the "debunked" thoughts. Does any on know how many bits have the EMM and PB DSD DACs?

 

[dallasjustice]

The EMM and PBD are both single resistor DACs. They do DSD without converting it. I used to own a PBD and I thought the native DSD sounded fabulous. I sold it for a PCM-only DAC because I found the PCM-only DAC could do PCM at or above that level and I discovered that I listened to only about 5% DSD files.

I think the best thing from a marketing standpoint would have been to ignore DSD and just promote the benefits of PCM. The truth is that ALL DACs have their strengths and weaknesses. All DACs have a sweetspot. So, I chose my sweetspot according to my preferences. I think the prospective BA owners will do the same thing.

Unfortunately, the provoking but inaccurate tittle of this thread risks sending us into a fight between DSD and PCM partisans, ignoring the more significant technical facts of the BADA newsletter. DSD is not only a delivery format - it is also an encoding system that according to the experts has with some specific sound characteristics. IMHO the main question is knowing what implementation serves better the format in reproduction.

Multibit can be anything over 1 bit - the marketing department of BADA exploits this ambiguity. I think that this is one of the points where we could focus our attention, ignoring the "debunked" thoughts. Does any on know how many bits have the EMM and PB DSD DACs?

 

[Worldcat]

The new reference BADA will be more of a DSD dac than a PCM? Meaning the strength of the dac.

 

[edorr]

The EMM and PBD are both single resistor DACs. They do DSD without converting it. I used to own a PBD and I thought the native DSD sounded fabulous. I sold it for a PCM-only DAC because I found the PCM-only DAC could do PCM at or above that level and I discovered that I listened to only about 5% DSD files.

I suspect the "1%" true 1 bid DACs BADA is alluding to are indeed the EMM Labs and PBD.

 

[dallasjustice]

From what I understand, I think the Lampi is as well. But I am sure Norman could expand on that at length.

I suspect the "1%" true 1 bid DACs BADA is alluding to are indeed the EMM Labs and PBD.

 

[jap]

The EMM and PBD are both single resistor DACs. They do DSD without converting it. I used to own a PBD and I thought the native DSD sounded fabulous. I sold it for a PCM-only DAC because I found the PCM-only DAC could do PCM at or above that level and I discovered that I listened to only about 5% DSD files.

Your PDB converted all your PCM files to a format that has twice the data rate of SACD before converting it to analog.

EMM Labs/Meitner Audio use the Meitner Digital Audio Translator (MDAT™) to upsample PCM to 5.6 MHz, double the SACD standard.

 

[wisnon]

From what I understand, I think the Lampi is as well. But I am sure Norman could expand on that at length.

The Lampi uses NO bits…operates purely in the analog domain…after USB reception.

 

[dallasjustice]

Yes, both the PBD and EMM convert everything to 2xDSD.

The point that Berkeley is making is that none of the other so called DSD capable DACs are natively handling the one-bit-wonder. FWIW, I think it's just marketing jargon. However, I would love to hear a more detailed explanation on both sides of the argument from folks that really understand the math. Pflash Pflaumer vs. Andreas Koch, head-to-head in the ring!!

Your PDB converted all your PCM files to a format that has twice the data rate of SACD before converting it to analog.

EMM Labs/Meitner Audio use the Meitner Digital Audio Translator (MDAT™) to upsample PCM to 5.6 MHz, double the SACD standard.

 

[Bruce B]

Pflash Pflaumer vs. Andreas Koch, head-to-head in the ring!!

I'll put my money on Andreas.....

 

[ted_b]

I'll put my money on Andreas.....

Michael, your point about sweetspots, and betting on your listening preferences is spot on, in my world.

It seems like Berkeley is melding multibit SDM with mutibit PCM. From my measly understanding Sonoma is an 8 bit (i.e multibit) 2.6Mhz solution, but no one I know has ever called them any thing but "native DSD" let alone PCM. And the way Michal (Mytek) and some others have stated, their multibit SDM internal architectures take 1 bit to say 4 or 5, but keep the sample rate (and lack of PCM ingredients like brick wall filters etc) the same. That is why they need 40 or100k noise filtering, like any DSD signal would need. It seems disingenuous to call that DSD-to-PCM, as Berkeley seems to be doing.

 

[Orb]

Yes, both the PBD and EMM convert everything to 2xDSD.

The point that Berkeley is making is that none of the other so called DSD capable DACs are natively handling the one-bit-wonder. FWIW, I think it's just marketing jargon. However, I would love to hear a more detailed explanation on both sides of the argument from folks that really understand the math. Pflash Pflaumer vs. Andreas Koch, head-to-head in the ring!!

Yeah, also a consideration the scope should cover the complete processing chain so DSD is transcoded to PCM for editing and back to DSD.
Interestingly though and not exact to my above point; some of the bad PCM hirez recordings that have been reviewed/measured by Hifi News here in the UK are because in the studio the music changed between PCM->DSD and then released downsampled again as PCM.
The hirez PCM music analysed looked a mess in the worst examples; need to stress this is not the given for all such releases I would say, but there is still usually a good indication when a file is released as PCM from downsampled DSD as quite a few have been caught by HifiNews with some anomalous traits.

One of the technical arguments against DSD is changing between it and PCM multiple times (several articles can be found about this, Bruno and several others done interviews going into detail), but then it comes down to is the technical issue if managed correctly more than trivial when listening.
Cheers
Orb

 

[wisnon]

Why should this new Dac be any better than the new Chord Hugo which is a Qute EX on battery power? 26K tap length and all. DSD128 capable.Totally isolated and works with a 'pod.

 

[microstrip]

I suspect the "1%" true 1 bid DACs BADA is alluding to are indeed the EMM Labs and PBD.

What kind of DAC is the DCS Vivaldi when used in DSD?

 

[Orb]

What kind of DAC is the DCS Vivaldi when used in DSD?

Complicated
Still, I think the answer also needs to consider the Vivaldi Upsampler unit.
Cheers
Orb

 

[Audioseduction]

Bel Canto team also recommends to transcode DSD via your music server with either JRMC or Pure Music. I use JRMC v19 and play back DSD to my Bel Canto e. One DAC3.7vb DAC. I have heard DSD dacs like EMM, Meitner and others but I'm extremely pleased with this arrangement in regards to SQ playback.

Here's a link to Bel Cantos explanation: http://www.belcantodesign.com/pdfs/Optimal_DSD_Playback.pdf

 

[dallasjustice]

I also convert my DSD in JRMC. I do it on-the-fly. Ted recently informed me that MC19 can do an "offline" DSD to PCM conversion. Have you tried the offline method? If so, does it sound any different than the on-the-fly conversion?

Bel Canto team also recommends to transcode DSD via your music server with either JRMC or Pure Music. I use JRMC v19 and play back DSD to my Bel Canto DAC3.5VB mkII DAC. I have heard DSD dacs like EMM, Meitner and others but I'm extremely pleased with this arrangement in regards to SQ playback.

Here's a link to Bel Cantos explanation: http://www.belcantodesign.com/pdfs/Optimal_DSD_Playback.pdf