New BADA DAC; DSD Debunked?

[edorr]

While on the subject. I was playing Patricia Barber's "Mythology" in 44/16 yesterday and then switched to the SACD version of "Verse" (selling for $150 on eBay). The former completely trounced SQ of the SACD. No indictment of DSD per se of course, but just proof that in 99% of the cases the DSD / PCM debate is completely moot because of all the other variables that factor into final SQ (incl. prior conversions, mastering, playback HW).

On the subject of 2L recordings - I found the difference between their MCH SACD (DSD 5.1) and MCH BR (196/24 5.1), both played on my Marantz 9004 analog out negligible (same track). Then spinning the SACD in a modded Oppo digital out (converted to PCM), trounced the Marantz - showing again that hardware / signal path differences far outweigh format differences.

 

[Orb]

Agree it is pretty moot because not only are some products better at DSD or PCM, same is applicable to studios-releases IMO.
So I am happy I can buy either format from a diverse range of labels-studios and there are excellent electronics out there for either format (and may do both to a high enough standard to ones preferences).

Cheers
Orb

 

[wizard]

View attachment 17292
$16000 - Ref

View attachment 17293
$5000 - old Alpha

Anyone can see any difference in parts quality and layout?

 

[CKKeung]

Anyone can see any difference in parts quality and layout?

Just posted : http://www.computeraudiophile.com/c...dio-design-alpha-dac-reference-series-review/
Said to be a game-changer.

 

[Bruce B]

Just posted : http://www.computeraudiophile.com/c...dio-design-alpha-dac-reference-series-review/
Said to be a game-changer.

Chris saying something from Berkeley is a game changer. Who didn't see that coming?

The comments are worth more to me than the "review"

 

[amirm]

The general layout of the analog stages seems very similar but of course it is hard to see the actual components to be sure. Biggest difference is in the processor/DSP section where I suspect new filters sit. The power supply also seems a lot fancier. Another difference could be the clock circuits/PLL.

 

[Andre Marc]

Berkeley Audio is announcing a new DAC:

http://cybwiz.blogspot.co.uk/2013/12/berkeley-audio-design-alpha-dac.html

It ships with an offline DSD to PCM converter that runs on a PC

From the announcement:
"Careful consideration was given to providing the highest possible reproduction of DSD files by the Alpha DAC Reference Series. 99% of modern DAC’s, including the Alpha Reference Series use mult-bit D/A converters because they provide better performance than 1-bit converters – even those who advertise “native” DSD compatibility. So, at some point, the 1-bit DSD stream must be converted to multi-bit for all of those DAC’s.

We could, like many other manufacturers, convert 1-bit DSD to multi-bit within the Alpha DAC Reference Series and show “DSD” in the front panel display. That would be the easiest approach from a marketing perspective. But that would also mean increasing the amount of processing in the DAC during playback which would degrade audio quality, and audio quality is the reason the Alpha Reference Series exists."

MY TAKE ON THIS:
They are basically saying, we don't do true 1-bit DSD, never have and never will, and 99% of manufacturers claiming they do, don't really do native DSD because they convert to multi-bit, which sounds better anyway. I guess the "1%" That does true native 1-bit DSD would be likes of EMM Labs. This must sound like a bit of heresy in the rapidly growing church of DSD converts......

It also appears they are suggesting for the 99% of multi bit DACs parading as DSD dacs (which would include my MSB), you are better off converting offline to High Rez PCM, because it offloads processing duties from the DAC. This would make eminent sense to me, and would be consistent with my experience that (on my MSB DAC anyway) DSD buys you absolutely nothing high rez PCM cannot deliver.

ANY THOUGHTS?

The iFi Micro iDSD DAC, at $499 does native DSD pure and simple with LPF direct to analog.

DAC purveyors hawking a 5 or 6 figure unit should hear this true little wonder with both PCM and DSD material. It would be a true humbling experience, and quite honestly, embarrasing.

Bryston is working on a DAC that will have two separate latches for DSD and PCM..

Your last sentence is far too absolute and simplistic. DSD is a different flavor of digital, in the way tape and vinyl are different flavor of analog.

 

[Andre Marc]

Didn't we have another thread that surmised that most "DSD" DACs (except for a few) transcode to PCM for the D2A conversion? Then, what are we comparing? The sound of the DAC or the sound of the format?

I much prefer to listen to music, and not gear or formats. That I prefer the same music on different gear and formats to others just boil down to a matter of taste. My Christmas wish is for a music playing machine that plays everything..... and doesn't give an indication of what format or resolution it is playing.

Pono.

 

[wisnon]

The iFi Micro iDSD DAC, at $499 does native DSD pure and simple with LPF direct to analog.

DAC purveyors hawking a 5 or 6 figure unit should hear this true little wonder with both PCM and DSD material. It would be a true humbling experience, and quite honestly, embarrasing.

Bryston is working on a DAC that will have two separate latches for DSD and PCM..

Your last sentence is far too absolute and simplistic. DSD is a different flavor of digital, in the way tape and vinyl are different flavor of analog.

Yes, I have one and I also have older Lampis (PCM and DSD), but will be getting the Lampi Big7 soon. Lampi redefined DSD for me. Very few can play DSD like it. Once I heard the Big 7 I was hooked. Its a dream. Thus, I laugh at reviews like Chris's....

 

[Andre Marc]

Yes, I have one and I also have older Lampis (PCM and DSD), but will be getting the Lampi Big7 soon. Lampi redefined DSD for me. Very few can play DSD like it. Once I heard the Big 7 I was hooked. Its a dream. Thus, I laugh at reviews like Chris's....

What do you think of the Micro iDSD? Our Friend Bruce loves the Lampi too.

 

[wisnon]

What do you think of the Micro iDSD? Our Friend Bruce loves the Lampi too.

I like the iDSD a lot and discusssed it quite a bit with Thorsten too. He uses a similar approach to Lukasz in that they dont just take the chip manufacturer's implementation manual, rather they dissect the components and implement them the way they find best, through intelligent application and experimentation. For DSD, Lukasz does not use any Dac chip and Thorsten chose a chip that has a clear bypass LPF pathway for DSD. The BB1793 also is a hybrid DSM and R2R chip and Thorsten uses this to best advantage for PCM... For DSD it's the bypass plus minimal processing (real native DSD).

The iDSD is extreme value for money and trounces the Hugo in DSD for sure. The Lampi DSD biggest advantage is over the iDSD are the use tubes and the overspecified power supply. DSD seems to love tubes.

 

[Elberoth]

The new DAC seems to have an upgraded digital engine (filter), obviously a different chassis, and a different PCB material, which now looks like a Teflon laminate of sorts.

The PSU seems to be a carry over from the Alpha DAC, as is the general PCB layout.

I wonder what parts have been upgraded (if any). For one, such a simple thing like Crystal Oscilator selection can hugely increase the BOM (depending on the selection and desired performance levels you are aiming at). Using stock XO is way cheaper, than selecting say 1 from a batch of 100 crystals. I was told by several manufacturers, that crystals are one of the parts which vary in performance the most - even if you get them from a reputable crystal manufacturer. And XO quality have a big effect on the sound quality.

 

[CKKeung]

The main circuit board is of a different colour. Is this the special ceramic board claimed by Berkeley?
The circuit layout and components look the same. Maybe higher grade or matched ones are used but we are not sure.
The psu section is similar to that of Alpha Two.

I am most interested in the new "small tower" on the left side of the main circuit board. It seems to consists of some daughter boards stacked together with a top metallic shield labelled 'Alpha'.

 

[Andre Marc]

I like the iDSD a lot and discusssed it quite a bit with Thorsten too. He uses a similar approach to Lukasz in that they dont just take the chip manufacturer's implementation manual, rather they disect the components and implement them the way they find best, through intelligent appliucation and experimentation. For DSD, Lukasz does not use any Dac chip and Thorsten chose a chip that has a clear bypass LPF path for DSD. The BB1793 also is a hybrid DSM and R2R chip and Thorsten uses this to best advantage for PCM... For DSD its the bypass plus minimal processing (real native DSD).

The iDSD is extreme value for money and trounces the Hugo in DSD for sure. The Lampi DSD biggest advantage is over the iDSD is the use tubes and the overspecified power supply. DSD seems to love tubes.

Hi wisnon.

Yes, you summed it up perfectly.

I will add that I hear a much clearer difference between DSD and PCM files on the iDSD than through other, highly touted DSD capable DACs, costing many times more. In some cases, on those DACs,
which shall remain nameless, I am hard pressed to hear a difference between DSD and PCM.

Agree, the advantages of more advanced units like Lampi are power supply and output stage. But that being said, using the iDSD with the external battery supply really elevates it. The best power
supply is no power supply.

 

[adyc]

Thus, I laugh at reviews like Chris's....

I trust Chris' review on this one. Unlike some other reviewers, they keep on saying this is the best DAC ever whenever new super expensive DAC coming out. This DAC is not cheap but it is not super expensive. If you read his replies, he has a lot of very expensive DACs in his system for review but he never wrote any reviews on them. That's tell me that he put a lot of considerations before he thinks there is anything worth to report.

That is fine that you like DSD but I have a lot of 44.1 materials. This DAC certainly a worthwhile PCM DAC for me.

 

[dallasjustice]

I think Chris like so many others have fallen into a DAC trap. It's the never ending pursuit for a better DAC. It's a trap because it's obvious to me that those who lust after the next über DAC are neglecting the rest of their system. A really dialed in system won't show huge differences between DACs. The differences will really be very small and mostly insignificant. Of course, those trapped will hear differences but those differences are more likely representative of other much more serious flaws in their system. Maybe the "better" DAC makes those flaws less offensive/noticeable. But the underlying deficiency has little, if anything, to do with the digital front-end or DAC. It's what I've experienced having done things both ways.

Yes, the DAC matters but only to the extent it aligns properly with the entire system. Chris only reviews DACs and digital gear. IMO, there's a neurosis that develops from focusing too much on only one part of a system. Many folks on the CA forum suffer from this neurosis. I've owned really expensive digital gear. Now I use a $2,500 a 4CH DAC/ADC which launched my system into another universe compared to the "audiophile" DACs I've owned. This is only possible due to system synergy.

To each his own.

 

[jap]

I think Chris like so many others have fallen into a DAC trap. It's the never ending pursuit for a better DAC. It's a trap because it's obvious to me that those who lust after the next über DAC are neglecting the rest of their system. A really dialed in system won't show huge differences between DACs. The differences will really be very small and mostly insignificant. Of course, those trapped will hear differences but those differences are more likely representative of other much more serious flaws in their system. Maybe the "better" DAC makes those flaws less offensive/noticeable. But the underlying deficiency has little, if anything, to do with the digital front-end or DAC. It's what I've experienced having done things both ways.

Yes, the DAC matters but only to the extent it aligns properly with the entire system. Chris only reviews DACs and digital gear. IMO, there's a neurosis that develops from focusing too much on only one part of a system. Many folks on the CA forum suffer from this neurosis. I've owned really expensive digital gear. Now I use a $2,500 a 4CH DAC/ADC which launched my system into another universe compared to the "audiophile" DACs I've owned. This is only possible due to system synergy.

To each his own.

Not true.

 

[Bruce B]

You'll have to remember too, Chris has had a long standing relationship with BADA and he's not going to sh*t in his backyard.

 

[Elberoth]

I think Chris like so many others have fallen into a DAC trap. It's the never ending pursuit for a better DAC. It's a trap because it's obvious to me that those who lust after the next über DAC are neglecting the rest of their system. A really dialed in system won't show huge differences between DACs. The differences will really be very small and mostly insignificant. Of course, those trapped will hear differences but those differences are more likely representative of other much more serious flaws in their system. Maybe the "better" DAC makes those flaws less offensive/noticeable. But the underlying deficiency has little, if anything, to do with the digital front-end or DAC. It's what I've experienced having done things both ways.

Yes, the DAC matters but only to the extent it aligns properly with the entire system. Chris only reviews DACs and digital gear. IMO, there's a neurosis that develops from focusing too much on only one part of a system. Many folks on the CA forum suffer from this neurosis. I've owned really expensive digital gear. Now I use a $2,500 a 4CH DAC/ADC which launched my system into another universe compared to the "audiophile" DACs I've owned. This is only possible due to system synergy.

To each his own.

Sold your TotalDAC ?

 

[wisnon]

I trust Chris' review on this one. Unlike some other reviewers, they keep on saying this is the best DAC ever whenever new super expensive DAC coming out. This DAC is not cheap but it is not super expensive. If you read his replies, he has a lot of very expensive DACs in his system for review but he never wrote any reviews on them. That's tell me that he put a lot of considerations before he thinks there is anything worth to report.

That is fine that you like DSD but I have a lot of 44.1 materials. This DAC certainly a worthwhile PCM DAC for me.

I was not casting doubt on the review, Just the "best ever" statement. He has not heard every single product out there and based on what I have heard, I find the conclusion presumptuous. I have seen rave reviews/feeback on a few popular products out there today and because I was fortunate to recently have a marathon session at a Pal's place where he OWNS 6 quality Dacs, I got to hear difference myself and I can only laugh. Either we have screwed up ears or some units out there are simply overhyped. 2 of these touted Dacs DESTROYED DSD and if that is what people judge DSD by, I can only now understand why there are DSD haters out there. They simply have never heard REAL DSD. They just dont get "IT".

BA is a good company, so I expect that they will make a great reference Dac...however, game changer? Puhleeze, I dont think so! I am open-minded enuff to defer final judgement until i hear it.