New BADA DAC; DSD Debunked?

[Audioseduction]

I have not, I also do the on-the-fly conversion. I may try someday, I'm very happy with it as is. For what it’s worth, if you enjoy your sound that's all that matters in my book.

 

[wizard]

View attachment 12874

 

[jtinn]

Berkeley Audio is announcing a new DAC:

From the announcement:
"We could, like many other manufacturers, convert 1-bit DSD to multi-bit within the Alpha DAC Reference Series and show “DSD” in the front panel display. That would be the easiest approach from a marketing perspective. But that would also mean increasing the amount of processing in the DAC during playback which would degrade audio quality, and audio quality is the reason the Alpha Reference Series exists."

MY TAKE ON THIS:
They are basically saying, we don't do true 1-bit DSD, never have and never will."

ANY THOUGHTS?

My Take on this:
They are basically saying, they can't do true 1-bit DSD, never could and never will."

Best Regards,

Jonathan Tinn
Playback Designs

 

[dallasjustice]

Jonathan,
I totally agree. Their marketing should have simply ignored that format.

My Take on this:
They are basically saying, they can't do true 1-bit DSD, never could and never will."

Best Regards,

Jonathan Tinn
Playback Designs

 

[microstrip]

(...) I totally agree. Their marketing should have simply ignored that format.

Perhaps they also wanted to remember us of one more important point of view according to BADA - playing PCM though 1-bit DSD degrades sound quality. After all more than 99% of the digital recordings are PCM. It seems that audio perfectionists should own two DACs ...

 

[audioarcher]

Perhaps they also wanted to remember us of one more important point of view according to BADA - playing PCM though 1-bit DSD degrades sound quality. After all more than 99% of the digital recordings are PCM. It seems that audio perfectionists should own two DACs ...

That has been my thinking as well. Can't afford to do that now, but it would seem ideal.

 

[JackD201]

Perhaps they also wanted to remember us of one more important point of view according to BADA - playing PCM though 1-bit DSD degrades sound quality. After all more than 99% of the digital recordings are PCM. It seems that audio perfectionists should own two DACs ...

I have one coming with two in one chassis. Proof will be in the pudding however. I'm afraid it will be a while before I can give my impressions. Going by my experience with the LH Da Vinci PCM only, the silk capacitors take even longer to stabilize than teflon caps. The wait was well worth it though.

 

[Bruce B]

1. Any time you make a DSD->PCM conversion, you degrade the sound. Be it within the software or off-line.

2. Any off-line conversions, especially to 24-176.4 or higher, automatically doubles your file size.

 

[Orb]

1. Any time you make a DSD->PCM conversion, you degrade the sound. Be it within the software or off-line.
....

Bruce,
you mean audibly when comparing source file DSD (a) with same file transcoded to DXD in memory not to file (realistically I would prefer it to be the highest bit depth the DAW supports internally 32-bit 352.8kHz) and back to DSD for listening as (b)?
So a and b are both DSD.
Cheers
Orb

 

[Bruce B]

Bruce,
you mean audibly when comparing source file DSD (a) with same file transcoded to DXD in memory not to file (realistically I would prefer it to be the highest bit depth the DAW supports internally 32-bit 352.8kHz) and back to DSD for listening as (b)?
So a and b are both DSD.
Cheers
Orb

Yes it is audible. Michael Bishop has spoken about this several times as well.

 

[microstrip]

Bruce,

Did you try listening to PCM 24-176.4 files transcoded to DSD using the Lampzidor DSD DAC?

 

[Bruce B]

Bruce,

Did you try listening to PCM 24-176.4 files transcoded to DSD using the Lampzidor DSD DAC?

No I have not. That's something else to try.

I had a little mishap in the OR last week and I'm feeling worse than sh*t, so it may take some time before I'm back to 100%

 

[wisnon]

Sorry to hear that Bruce...

 

[jeremya]

No I have not. That's something else to try.

I had a little mishap in the OR last week and I'm feeling worse than sh*t, so it may take some time before I'm back to 100%

Feel better soon, Bruce!

 

[jeremya]

Yes it is audible. Michael Bishoor has spoken about this several times as well.

When you've got a sec, can you dig up some links (if his comments are published / recorded anywhere?). I'm a big fan of DSD, but I've been hearing this "convert it to PCM and it sounds just the same!" argument a lot lately. It would be nice to hear a different opinion in-depth.

I found this excellent talk about DSD by Andreas Koch which makes similar assertions. Always looking for more info.

 

[Bruce B]

When you've got a sec, can you dig up some links (if his comments are published / recorded anywhere?). I'm a big fan of DSD, but I've been hearing this "convert it to PCM and it sounds just the same!" argument a lot lately. It would be nice to hear a different opinion in-depth.

All I have now are personal emails, but I can look around later for them. You'll probably see some comments on forums like GearSlutz and Rec. Audio.

 

[Orb]

When you've got a sec, can you dig up some links (if his comments are published / recorded anywhere?). I'm a big fan of DSD, but I've been hearing this "convert it to PCM and it sounds just the same!" argument a lot lately. It would be nice to hear a different opinion in-depth.

I found this excellent talk about DSD by Andreas Koch which makes similar assertions. Always looking for more info.

I would not necessarily say it sounds the same just because it goes through a PCM stage (or if using ESS 9018 through their format into Hyperstream solution).
A practical way to show that is click on the top right drop down menu on the following studio link and select Test Bench HD audio files.
http://www.2l.no/

All of these are from DXD master files, and there are a few downloads that are transcoded to DSD.
So you can make your own mind up.
However 2L are probably best for PCM releases (where Classic Channel Records are probably better for DSD).
Cheers
Orb

 

[Bruce B]

I would not necessarily say it sounds the same just because it goes through a PCM stage (or if using ESS 9018 through their format into Hyperstream solution).
A practical way to show that is click on the top right drop down menu on the following studio link and select Test Bench HD audio files.
http://www.2l.no/

All of these are from DXD master files, and there are a few downloads that are transcoded to DSD.
So you can make your own mind up.
However 2L are probably best for PCM releases (where Classic Channel Records are probably better for DSD).
Cheers
Orb

This is not a good test because the DXD files were converted to DSD. With what?

What you need are 2 separate files, each done natively.

Or

A DSD file that has gone through conversions at certain points and see if you can hear the transitions.

 

[Orb]

This is not a good test because the DXD files were converted to DSD. With what?

What you need are 2 separate files, each done natively.

Or

A DSD file that has gone through conversions at certain points and see if you can hear the transitions.

That was the point Bruce if you look at the context of jeremya's post
If they sound different it debunks the statement that DSD sounds all the same if goes through PCM
So, try the hirez PCM and also the DSD of 2L, if sound the same may prove that statement and if sound different then may prove PCM does not have such an extensive effect in that context.
But the challenge I appreciate is mastering levels.

So please try both and let us know, otherwise it is impossible to say if PCM makes DSD sound the same.
In same way one could come up with argument DSD focused converters makes all PCM sound the same and can only be proved if one listens to the DSD native master version and the transcoded PCM (I know they do not though because of the various digital filters but then one could try a NOS DAC for the PCM).
That said I do know many of the DSD master files converted to PCM still have the ultrasonic noise and some DSD traits not filtered out due to the work HifiNews has done as part of their measurements for download music.
Cheers
Orb

 

[garylkoh]

Didn't we have another thread that surmised that most "DSD" DACs (except for a few) transcode to PCM for the D2A conversion? Then, what are we comparing? The sound of the DAC or the sound of the format?

I much prefer to listen to music, and not gear or formats. That I prefer the same music on different gear and formats to others just boil down to a matter of taste. My Christmas wish is for a music playing machine that plays everything..... and doesn't give an indication of what format or resolution it is playing.