Does Upgrading Cables Actually SAVE You Money?

[microstrip]

When I dropped less than $200 on a new digital cable from Mapleshade in my system my mind was telling me no way would it sound better than the $1000 Virtual Dynamics digital cable I was already using. Luckily I have two ears and one brain so my ears won the vote that contest. My mind was already made up that my current cable was superior and I just auditioned this one since I liked the other products I had tried from this vendor like his speaker stands and CD's. It took about 10 seconds for me to know that the new cable thrashed the one I was using. My ears outvoted my "logical" human psychology as well.

The VD cable went on Ebay and I had money left over for the new one. I know the placebo effect can happen. As for technical tools this is an interesting one, it helps reduce placebo effect and its free:

http://harmanhowtolisten.blogspot.com/

Interesting. Are you saying that using the Harman methodologies you were able to distinguish between these two digital cables in your system?
Can I ask you what was the equipment being used?

 

[witchdoctor]

If power and cables are the backbone of the system, then the room's acoustics, size and loudspeakers in that room must be equal to the listener's set of ears and brain in that same room with that power and cables? :b

Doc, what medical sector are you specialized in? ...Your username says witchdoctor, anything close to that? :b

The power and cables are the backbone, the room is the torso and the components are the arms and legs. You need to have a balance of all three. Check out this article on a state of the art Auro 3D system for an example:
http://mrgcustom.com/press/Electronic House Jan 2016 Issue - MRG Theater.pdf

 

[witchdoctor]

Interesting. Are you saying that using the Harman methodologies you were able to distinguish between these two digital cables in your system?
Can I ask you what was the equipment being used?

Sure, I used a PC streaming from Tidal into a Sunfire Theater Grand 3 processor in my HT and into a Parasound ZDac in my desktop system. I am saying you can hear a difference without any additional training but the listening course from Harman will help you identify actual changes as opposed to just a placebo effect. The Mapleshade cable sounded fuller, it presented more of what was in the mix in comparison to the VD cable. Dr. Sean Olive has a forum here and it is his blog where you can find the course, if you have questions you can try posting and maybe he will respond.

 

[witchdoctor]

Cables (power, IC, speaker), along with clean power, and vibration control, are the foundation upon which a good stereo is built. Without a good foundation, no gear will perform at its optimum. However, with a good foundation then any gear you currently have, and any new gear, will operate at its best.

I couldn't agree more. I noticed you are using the Mapleshade Samson rack. I am using their bedrock speaker stands and had no idea a speaker stand could make my Paradigm Active 40's sound so much better. it was almost as if I had new speakers. I also use their vibration control system on my active center channel and some of my other components.

 

[witchdoctor]

Room acoustics are another topic.

There's lots of important aspects to setting up a system and the implied false dichotomy that if you upgrade cables your room acoustics (or whatever) must suffer because that's what your spending your money on and the other is neglected is a bit ridiculous. The acquisition of cables has absolutely nothing to do with what speakers and room treatments you use and one may have absolutely no effect on the other. I'd argue most people spend money and effort on ALL aspects of their system because most people that are assembling a high end system tend to be reasonably intelligent.

And hopefully their spouse appreciates their wisdom on allocating budget on all things audio.

 

[witchdoctor]

You certainly get a better return over time with real estate in central London than with hi fi! If you decide to move, let me know!

Does it come with a 30 day audition?

 

[witchdoctor]

Here is a recent thread of mine on the effect of the absence of ASC tube traps in my room:

http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?20189-ASC-tube-traps-effect-of-their-absence

The OP also has links to my listening room, with pictures of all the treatments.

Tell me, when you read the OP, how cables can 'fake' the effect of tube traps. They can't. And those effects are much more profound than cables usually produce.

Excellent thread, I have never tried tube traps and they seem to be next up on my audition list, thank you.

 

[witchdoctor]

Here is a recent thread of mine on the effect of the absence of ASC tube traps in my room:

http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?20189-ASC-tube-traps-effect-of-their-absence

The OP also has links to my listening room, with pictures of all the treatments.

Tell me, when you read the OP, how cables can 'fake' the effect of tube traps. They can't. And those effects are much more profound than cables usually produce.

Is that a Tice Power Block I see in your system? If so I see one on Craigs List in good condition for $100, any thoughts? Thanks

 

[Al M.]

Excellent thread, I have never tried tube traps and they seem to be next up on my audition list, thank you.

You're welcome!

 

[Al M.]

Is that a Tice Power Block I see in your system? If so I see one on Craigs List in good condition for $100, any thoughts? Thanks

I have a Tice Power Block II. The one on Craigslist looks like mine, but perhaps it's a version I? My Tice is definitely great, still kicking after 25 years! The $100 sounds good, but shipping might cost you an arm and a leg -- it's heavy.

 

[ddk]

Exactly. The mindset that your going to settle for inferior cables because there are more important things to deal with is backwards imo. Especially interconnect cables, there's no possible way to fairly evaluate anything in your system without good quality IC cables. So people put a system together using colored, warm cables which makes it likely they choose brighter components to compensate for their warm, slow cables.... Then, they upgrade cables and when they get more neutral cables they can actually hear what their system is doing and they don't like it. So go back to the warm, slow cables so all your issues (and a good part of your resolution) is masked and end up with a mid-fi system compared to what you could have had.

I think we should expand on the vocabulary used and make clear that inferior and superior do not mean cheap or precious but neutral, i.e. least noticeable sonic signature or colored, most noticeable signature. My own experience with many setups has been that nothing will send you down the rabbit hole like power cords that do things and footers! First thing I always do is convince the owners to remove both from their systems before proceeding any further...

david

 

[Barry2013]

Is that a Tice Power Block I see in your system? If so I see one on Craigs List in good condition for $100, any thoughts? Thanks

First thank you for starting what has proved to be a very good thread.
I can't comment on the Tice but I have used for years an Audience Aspect AR8 passive power conditioner which also serves as a distribution block, I've been very pleased with it and am about to upgrade the power cable to it with a high power AU24SE cable. Used ones do come up for sale but rather more than the Tice and they are available in different sizes.

 

[DaveC]

One issue with using cables that are other than neutral is you will then choose components to compensate for the cable's shortcomings, or balance the sound out. IMO, passive components should never be used as tone controls due to the fact they will degrade aspects of your system's performance moreso than neutral cables. You're better off spending some cash for decent, neutral cables from the start and having the ability to more honestly examine the performance of your components. The same is true for power, if you have issues with dirty power you will then choose warmer cables and components to compensate for the power issues. Power and cables are the backbone of the system and these things should be done right BEFORE you spend big $ on components. The result will be a much clearer, detailed and engaging system.

Another issue with cables are the fact interconnects are a very sensitive cable and there are very, very few ic cables that are actually neutral. Even the best copper adds warmth and smooths out detail. Most silver contributes to harshness and glare. Finding a truly neutral, clear and detailed ic cable is very rare, but without it you won't experience the full potential of your system.

So in short, leave it to amplification devices matched carefully with your speakers to attain the timbre and balance you want and choose cables based on their clarity, detail and accuracy.

And price does not necessarily equate to performance, keep in mind audio is also a luxury market...

I think we should expand on the vocabulary used and make clear that inferior and superior do not mean cheap or precious but neutral, i.e. least noticeable sonic signature or colored, most noticeable signature. My own experience with many setups has been that nothing will send you down the rabbit hole like power cords that do things and footers! First thing I always do is convince the owners to remove both from their systems before proceeding any further...

david

Yup, I agree. My cables aren't cheap but relative to the big names they are 3-5x less expensive.

Also I do agree power cables are often NOT neutral, and like any passive device deviation from neutral is not good imo. A good power cable should offer increased clarity and dynamics but shouldn't change the overall character of the system. Same with footers...

 

[ddk]

Yup, I agree. My cables aren't cheap but relative to the big names they are 3-5x less expensive.

You're being too modest Dave, you haven't caught up to the fantasy !

http://www.theaudiobeat.com/highend2015/highend2015_nordost.htm

david

 

[bonzo75]

You're being too modest Dave, you haven't caught up to the fantasy !

http://www.theaudiobeat.com/highend2015/highend2015_nordost.htm

david

David, you need to get buy that Odin phono cable. Sell your Thorens ref or American Sounds quick, and put that money towards that cable

 

[ddk]

David, you need to get buy that Odin phono cable. Sell your Thorens ref or American Sounds quick, and put that money towards that cable

Not yet Ked, waiting for Odin 3!

david

 

[microstrip]

David, you need to get buy that Odin phono cable. Sell your Thorens ref or American Sounds quick, and put that money towards that cable

IMHO you need a full set of Odin cables to appreciate Odin, not an isolated cable. I had a loan of such set for a few days when I owned the Aida's an they were impressive - they were really a very good match with the ARC's. But just the power cables was much more than what I could ever consider for all the system cabling.

 

[microstrip]

Not yet Ked, waiting for Odin 3!

david

I want to be the first in the queue for the American Sounds ...

 

[bonzo75]

IMHO you need a full set of Odin cables to appreciate Odin, not an isolated cable. I had a loan of such set for a few days when I owned the Aida's an they were impressive - they were really a very good match with the ARC's. But just the power cables was much more than what I could ever consider for all the system cabling.

I heard the loom with Raidho top of the line, Soluution 710, and Vivaldi Stack. I replaced ICs and speaker cables by Ansuz - C. I liked the Ansuz. I also replaced them with Audience

 

[bonzo75]

I want to be the first in the queue for the American Sounds ...

Unfortunately, the way hifi is, there won't be a queue for American Sounds, but there will be for Odin 3. So might be quicker if you get first in queue for Odin 3, then take it over to David and do a swap