Are there any "giant-killer" speakers?

[Phelonious Ponk]

I have experimented a lot with pro audio studio monitors .. ATC, Genelec , KrK etc..
ATC and Genelec do some stunning stuff .. I listened to a Genelec based system the other day and was truly blown away .. their top of the range speakers(I think it was the 1000 or 8000 models) and twin Genelec subs with their room correction..
Krk VXT8 + their 12sho sub for round $4000 is an exceptional system too for the money ..
Prior to my giya G1's , I used meridian DSP6000's and 2 SVS sb13 ultra subs , bought the whole lot for $5000 2nd hand.. it took the G1's to beat it at more than 10x the price..

Given that you've found your bliss with a pair of Giyas, it's not surprising that you like pro monitor/sub systems. Given that he's into tubes and vintage horns, it's not surprising that David hasn't heard anything from the pro monitor world that appeals to him. These represent very different design approaches resulting in very different strengths and weaknesses. And that gap between what represents a "giant" makes it pretty difficult to ID giant killers.

Tim

 

[Diapason]

In reality your Kharma 3.2s are one of the best small speakers around, I should know as the US importer at the time who worked with the factory to raise the performance of the original 3.0. to 3.1 & beyond versions. In its own right the 3.2 is a veritable giant, what exactly are you looking to change?

Yeah, that's probably fair to say. They were certainly raved about in TAS and elsewhere, and I considered them destination speakers when I bought them. I still admire them in many ways and I still think they're genuinely great speakers, but I don't always enjoy them. Their slightly lean presentation and their ruthless nature don't suit my listening habits any more, especially in a room that adds zero bloom or warmth of its own. I'm looking for something easier to listen to, with a more broad-brush approach than a hyper-detailed approach. Think Sonus Faber and you'll be on the right track (a friend recently replaced his Kharmas with Amati Futuras and to be perfectly honest, I'm dead jealous!!)

Funny thing is, audiophile fickleness and changing fashions, not to mention lack of distribution in the US meaning zero online Kharma-related buzz, have crushed used values even in Europe. They used to sell for 16k-17k Euro here in the mid-naughties, these days you can probably pick up a pair for 4k. They DEFINITELY tick the giant-killer box at that level, especially in the right room and system.

 

[Billy Shears]

Yeah, that's probably fair to say. They were certainly raved about in TAS and elsewhere, and I considered them destination speakers when I bought them. I still admire them in many ways and I still think they're genuinely great speakers, but I don't always enjoy them. Their slightly lean presentation and their ruthless nature don't suit my listening habits any more, especially in a room that adds zero bloom or warmth of its own. I'm looking for something easier to listen to, with a more broad-brush approach than a hyper-detailed approach. Think Sonus Faber and you'll be on the right track (a friend recently replaced his Kharmas with Amati Futuras and to be perfectly honest, I'm dead jealous!!)

Funny thing is, audiophile fickleness and changing fashions, not to mention lack of distribution in the US meaning zero online Kharma-related buzz, have crushed used values even in Europe. They used to sell for 16k-17k Euro here in the mid-naughties, these days you can probably pick up a pair for 4k. They DEFINITELY tick the giant-killer box at that level, especially in the right room and system.

If thats your feeling then you may have to give those sonus faber Olympicas a go. If you have reflections coming off the narrow sidewalls you still will have to sort those out but tonally they are much more what you are looking for...

 

[microstrip]

Yeah, that's probably fair to say. They were certainly raved about in TAS and elsewhere, and I considered them destination speakers when I bought them. I still admire them in many ways and I still think they're genuinely great speakers, but I don't always enjoy them. Their slightly lean presentation and their ruthless nature don't suit my listening habits any more, especially in a room that adds zero bloom or warmth of its own. I'm looking for something easier to listen to, with a more broad-brush approach than a hyper-detailed approach. Think Sonus Faber and you'll be on the right track (a friend recently replaced his Kharmas with Amati Futuras and to be perfectly honest, I'm dead jealous!!)

Funny thing is, audiophile fickleness and changing fashions, not to mention lack of distribution in the US meaning zero online Kharma-related buzz, have crushed used values even in Europe. They used to sell for 16k-17k Euro here in the mid-naughties, these days you can probably pick up a pair for 4k. They DEFINITELY tick the giant-killer box at that level, especially in the right room and system.

You have reason to be jealous. If the room, system and owner preference want a speaker with a slightly tilted down balance the Futura's are hard to beat. Most speakers disappear in a room, with the proper cables the Futura's vanish in the room, leaving only the music. But they do not kill the Aida's ...

 

[Diapason]

If thats your feeling then you may have to give those sonus faber Olympicas a go. If you have reflections coming off the narrow sidewalls you still will have to sort those out but tonally they are much more what you are looking for...

Yup! First reflections are tamed by GIK panels at the moment, so I'm hopeful.

My last 2 posts are making it difficult to continue with the idea that this thread isn't about me!!

 

[microstrip]

Given that you've found your bliss with a pair of Giyas, it's not surprising that you like pro monitor/sub systems. (...)

Can we know what is the similarity between the Giya G1 and a pair of pro monitor/sub systems?

 

[Billy Shears]

My last 2 posts are making it difficult to continue with the idea that this thread isn't about me!!

...well in the words of Basil Fawlty; You started it!

 

[etunes]

Focal Sopra no 2

Perform well above there price point .

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Can we know what is the similarity between the Giya G1 and a pair of pro monitor/sub systems?

Accuracy as a primary design goal, and in this case, very clean SS power with adequate headroom. Very broad, I understand, but a good start in a conversation comparing pro monitor systems to vintage horns and tubes.

Tim

 

[PeterA]

Accuracy as a primary design goal, and in this case, very clean SS power with adequate headroom. Very broad, I understand, but a good start in a conversation comparing pro monitor systems to vintage horns and tubes.

Tim

Tim, have you heard the Magico Q1? They are expensive, so would not qualify as giant killers by any stretch. However, I believe that accuracy was a primary design goal in their development and they are a mini monitor with a small, 7"? mid/bass driver.

 

[KeithR]

I have experimented a lot with pro audio studio monitors .. ATC, Genelec , KrK etc..
ATC and Genelec do some stunning stuff .. I listened to a Genelec based system the other day and was truly blown away .. their top of the range speakers(I think it was the 1000 or 8000 models) and twin Genelec subs with their room correction..
Krk VXT8 + their 12sho sub for round $4000 is an exceptional system too for the money ..
Prior to my giya G1's , I used meridian DSP6000's and 2 SVS sb13 ultra subs , bought the whole lot for $5000 2nd hand.. it took the G1's to beat it at more than 10x the price..

I demo'd Barefoot Sound MicroMain monitors for 2 weeks from Vintage King around 5 years ago- this is the "hot" speaker that many a pro has moved to and cost $7500/pr at the time, so pretty cost no object design for the pro audio world. It was also different as most pro audio monitors at the time were using metal tweeters that were really hot. Barefoot criticized this big time and used soft domes.

I didn't find they were as resolved as my similarly-priced Dynaudio Confidence C1 monitors at the time. I also found them preferably situated nearfield, which doesn't make sense in most audiophile rooms. I actually liked the design quite a bit with subs that were in the plane of the speaker.

The active speaker that makes more sense for audiophiles is the Avantgarde Zero 1- with active xover, dac, and no negative feedback 50 watt Class A amps/Class D sub amp. 16k/pair. Honestly, if I didn't have an analog rig I'd probably make the move!

 

[microstrip]

Accuracy as a primary design goal, and in this case, very clean SS power with adequate headroom. Very broad, I understand, but a good start in a conversation comparing pro monitor systems to vintage horns and tubes.

Tim

Happy to find you consider what you read on the net and subjective opinions more important than simple graphs! Yes, I also consider them great speakers. Frequency response data taken from the online Stereophile review, IMHO the Audiobeat review is also worth reading.

 

[KeithR]

I liked a JBL series with DSP that has recently been discontinued. I assume they'll be replaced with a new series with the new wave form they've developed. I don't remember the model #s, but as I said in my earlier post here, I like the smaller ones, with the 6" mid bass driver. I think the Dynaudios are also nice, easy to listen to. They have a slightly soft high end which is probably more friendly for audiophile ears. Some of the Focals have really impressed me. The Adams are really good at some things. But they're all still speakers, the most variable link in the chain, and you can't lump them all together. What I like specifically is probably not relevant as the broader point, which is why I made that point instead of specific recommendations. There's a whole category of speaker design out there that is the standard in pro audio, and largely ignored by the audiophile community, and it has some very distinct advantages including design and manufacturing efficiencies that make "bang for the buck" a natural.

"Giant killers?" Depends on what you call a giant. You love vintage horns. I had vintage horns back when they weren't vintage. I wouldn't care to live with them today. I think the better active, pro sub/sat setups will slay those giants pretty easily on many fronts. But that depends on what you want from your system. Different strokes.

Tim

but most are designed for nearfield application, not normal rooms. they also have dynamic and spl limitations.

 

[Diapason]

The active speaker that makes more sense for audiophiles is the Avantgarde Zero 1- with active xover, dac, and no negative feedback 50 watt Class A amps/Class D sub amp. 16k/pair. Honestly, if I didn't have an analog rig I'd probably make the move!

It's rare a speaker gets mentioned that I actually have access to over here, but I've heard this one. Well, kinda. The guys who run that particular showroom insist on setting them up in a particular nearfield configuration that they consider optimal. Whether they're right or wrong, it's not the way I'd ever listen to them at home, so on some level I was none the wiser after the dem. From what I heard I have some misgivings about how the different drivers gel, but how much of that was down to placement I simply can't tell. If the setup truly WAS optimal, then they don't have the sound I'm looking for.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Tim, have you heard the Magico Q1? They are expensive, so would not qualify as giant killers by any stretch. However, I believe that accuracy was a primary design goal in their development and they are a mini monitor with a small, 7"? mid/bass driver.

I have not heard them, Peter, but I'd like to. I'm interested in all speakers with design goals in line what I believe are the right design goals (for me, anyway). It increases the chances that I'll go out of my way to hear something, and actually like it.

Tim

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

but most are designed for nearfield application, not normal rooms. they also have dynamic and spl limitations.

The only thing I can think of that would limit a speaker to near field application is bad off-axis response/narrow sweet spot and insufficient power. There are many, many pro audio monitors that do not suffer from these problems. Now, with that said, many of them are not suited to huge rooms. Of course you can always step up to midfield monitors. Or just go ahead and get the JBL M2s.

Tim

Tim

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Happy to find you consider what you read on the net and subjective opinions more important than simple graphs! Yes, I also consider them great speakers. Frequency response data taken from the online Stereophile review, IMHO the Audiobeat review is also worth reading.

I have neither heard them nor read their charts. I jumped over to their site, got a quick read of their design philosophy and concluded if they weren't lying they were likely a speaker that would be enjoyed by someone who enjoyed pro audio monitors, as many of them have very similar goals. Scant information, but I remind you again, it was in the context of a conversation comparing vintage horns to modern monitors. In relative terms, it was not a leap of faith.

Tim

 

[KeithR]

The only thing I can think of that would limit a speaker to near field application is bad off-axis response/narrow sweet spot and insufficient power. There are many, many pro audio monitors that do not suffer from these problems. Now, with that said, many of them are not suited to huge rooms. Of course you can always step up to midfield monitors. Or just go ahead and get the JBL M2s.

Tim

Tim

i'm no expert when it comes to speaker design, but it was quite obvious moving around the Barefoots that they sounded best 6' away from me vs. the Dyn Confidence series.

the other issue with pro speakers are the hot tweeters. see Focal Twins (which I'm sure you've heard)

have you heard the M2s?

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Hot tweeters and odd dispersion characteristics are not exclusive to monitors and should be avoided, IMHO, in any speaker.

 

[KeithR]

Hot tweeters and odd dispersion characteristics are not exclusive to monitors and should be avoided, IMHO, in any speaker.

my guess is that near field monitors are designed for on-axis response (taking out room entirely), so that when not used in that situation they aren't optimal. i wouldn't consider that odd dispersion, just a reflection of how they are used. also, i imagine phase response is very different for each application.

perhaps you can point out some examples that are more well rounded that you enjoy. one that comes up occasionally is ATC, which I've never heard.