Are there any "giant-killer" speakers?

[Diapason]

When it comes to electronics, you occasionally find an amp or DAC or whatever that punches well above its weight (or at the very least, reviews that claim it does), but I feel like this is less true of loudspeakers. Of course there isn't a straight map between price and performance in any area of hifi, I'm not suggesting that, but it seems to me there is quite a small number of very well-regarded speaker manufacturers whose products come up again and again in high-end discussions, but not many outlier products. Is this a reflection of reality, a reflection of marketing, or am I mistaken in the first place? It certainly makes sense that speakers are more difficult to design and build, but surely there are smart designers in unknown pockets of the globe doing great work that doesn't make it in to the popular hifi press? A look at the show reports would suggest that there are LOTS of other options, but the names never seem to get a mention outside of those reports. Admittedly, quite a few of these seem to have price-tags to match the big boys, so they hardly tick the giant-killer box, but they still leave me curious.

Of course, I could put this thread another way and simply ask how can I get SOTA performance for peanuts??

 

[spiritofmusic]

Cue a queue of people toting their discoveries as world beaters/better than "I wouldn't touch Brand X w/a bargepole" comments.
I'll jump in first. Zu Audio Definitions Mk 4 spkrs. Claim to fame - utilises full range drivers, 2x 10" covering 40Hz-12kHz w/no energy sapping crossovers, simple Duelund caps filters to Radian supertweeters 12kHz-20kHz, and simple filters to down firing sub bass using onboard Lundahl transformer Hypex Class D amps, in room down to 16Hz (or so the specs state).
The sound is not for everyone (incl my l/t sparring buddy Bonzo75 who absolutely loathes them). But once you adjust to their tonally dense sound w/absolutely no crossover borne artifacts, and have a true full range spkr in a 4' x 1' x 1' domestically acceptable package w/excellent design aesthetics, it's hard to go back to other box spkrs. The sound doesn't tick the usual audiophile checklist, but is an amazing transducer, getting really close to the performers' intent, primarily via an amazingly potent tonality that imho is a lot closer to the reality of live music and real instruments than the usual suspects of Wilson, Magico, Kef, B&W etc.
But if you want cosmic amounts of soundstage etc etc, the Zus are probably not for you.
For $12.5k-$15k depending on finish, plius $5k for the Duelund/Lundahl mods (my total bill is £20k), they are nigh on impossible to beat. I contend they beat box spkrs at 2-3x the price, and the only boxes I'd consider swapping them for might be Vivid Giya G2s or G1s.
Diapason, we've been in discussion re your trials on poor sound/room. Feel free to PM me re further thoughts on Zu, and how I feel a Zu/Nat SET combination could be a fruitful area of investigation.

 

[Billy Shears]

Hi Diapason

Giant killer Speakers that punch well above there Weight?

-Well i am not allowed to mention the Kef Ls-50 as i own them and am somewhat biased to the magic they can pull off.

-The Martin Logan Motion Series has to get a mention because they sound great (they posess the Martin Logan House sound to a certain extent). Have fine build quality, sound great with tube amps and cost almost nothing. Personally i like the Motion 40 but you have to give the XTs a listen too.

-Magnepan Mg 1.7

-Scansonic HD Series ( designed by Raidho!)

 

[rbbert]

I think there have been a lot of "giant-killer" speakers mentioned in threads here and in reviews. A few that come quickly to mind are Magnepan 3.7, Nola KO and Revel Salon2. I'm sure there are many more, but with speakers you will invariably find plenty of proponents and detractors for every model at every price.

 

[Johnny Vinyl]

What is a "giant-killer" anyway? To me it has nothing to do with a specific brand, so I won't bother to name any, but rather a speaker whose equal pricepoint just sounds vastly superior to one's own ears than any other. Thereby for me it's not brand specific.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

No surprise here. I think the combination of small active monitors and subs can kill a lot of audiophile giants. They're not all great, of course, but some of them are spectacular and the ability to control the crossover, volume and position of the low end is always an advantage. There is no downside. In fact, I think the latter would have long ago become the standard if audiophiles didn't have such a love of big, impressive-looking speakers.

Tim

 

[microstrip]

Some of the worst measurements I have ever seen,
http://www.stereophile.com/content/zu-essence-loudspeaker-measurements#pLQsfTXhRHOQyXsS.97

Keith.

From the review you quote:

Conclusions
The Zu Essence is not a hair-shirt product, in which regard alone it has surpassed at least half the high-efficiency loudspeakers in the domestic marketplace. Inasmuch as it's among the more affordable choices—exponentially, in some cases—it has surpassed many of the rest. The Essence is something of a milestone.

With its very good bass extension, superb musicality, lack of egregious timbral colorations, and impressive spatial performance, the Zu Essence qualifies as the first loudspeaker I've heard that combines genuinely high efficiency with a level of audiophile performance for which no excuse needs to be made, all while being priced within the reach of the serious-but-not-crazy hobbyist (usd 5000.00 at time of review) . I'm really impressed with the Essence—and, yes, I could happily live with it myself: It's that good

Read more at http://www.stereophile.com/content/zu-essence-loudspeaker-page-3#Jk1lUsCZxR17ZPrs.99

Disclaimer - I have never listened to a Zu speaker.

 

[Fitzcaraldo215]

Well, judging from reviews in the popular magazines, all speakers reviewed seem to be above average and competitive with others at much more than their selling price. It is Lake Woebegone!!

 

[wisnon]

EA MM Micro 1, the Pioneer S-2EX's, Heil AMT bookshelf, Living Voice, Joseph Pulsars, Vapor, Fritz, Tekton, Trenner & Friedl Arte, Tanagra Lotus, and many other brilliant value speakers that are not outrageously priced.

 

[Kal Rubinson]

Some of the worst measurements I have ever seen,
http://www.stereophile.com/content/zu-essence-loudspeaker-measurements#pLQsfTXhRHOQyXsS.97
Keith.

I was turned off them by a show demo in which the presenter (owner? designer?) played a then-familiar disc after elaborating on the design choices. When I replied to his question about what I thought, I tried to be tactful and said that I had never heard that recording sound that way. He insisted that I had never before had the chance to hear it as it sounded in the studio. At that point, the guy sitting next to me interceded, said that he was in the sound booth at the recording sessions and that he had not ever heard it that way either. Awkward silence. Exit all.

 

[microstrip]

What is a "giant-killer" anyway? (...)

Good question John. By definition "giant killers" are single events - IMHO they do not apply to audio.

 

[microstrip]

I was turned off them by a show demo in which the presenter (owner? designer?) played a then-familiar disc after elaborating on the design choices. When I replied to his question about what I thought, I tried to be tactful and said that I had never heard that recording sound that way. He insisted that I had never before had the chance to hear it as it sounded in the studio. At that point, the guy sitting next to me interceded, said that he was in the sound booth at the recording sessions and that he had not ever heard it that way either. Awkward silence. Exit all.

Kal,

You published a rave and enthusiastic review of the B&W 802D speaker that I recently quoted. Several people in WBF report very negative opinions on it, supplying measurements to confirm their findings. Whom should we believe? BTW, I have been listening regularly to a pair of B&W802 diamond, and IMHO they sound very good when properly matched.

 

[Diapason]

Interesting comments so far, thanks all. It wasn't necessarily my intention to open a floodgate of suggestions (although I'm not sorry if that continues), more an observation that I seem to come across that same names over and over in high-end speakers, and everyone seems to recommend and aspire to the same handful of products. Maybe that's not true in and of itself, but I know that when it comes to shopping, I find it hard to see beyond the usual Wilsons, Magicos, Sonus Fabers, Revels, etc. How much of this is self-fulfilling, because a critical mass of people have bought them and talk about them, and how much is a pure question of quality? Note, I'm not saying that these *aren't* quality speakers, but are there other, rarely-heard-about alternatives that are their equal or superior at a given price point?

It's fair to ask what I even mean by "giant-killer" and I'll be honest, it's a fuzzy concept that I haven't really pinned down, as the previous paragraph will illustrate. Some of the examples given so far are a good illustration, I've never heard of Zu audio for example, and for all I know they're outstanding. Tim also brings a good point to the table, in that there may be excellent monitor and sub combinations that will satisfy as much as or even more than some of the standard full-range suggestions. Then there are active speakers to consider too.

So, I don't doubt that the big names provide great gear, but I'm wondering what's outside of audiophile fashion, is some of it as good, better, cheaper, etc?

 

[Al M.]

No surprise here. I think the combination of small active monitors and subs can kill a lot of audiophile giants. They're not all great, of course, but some of them are spectacular and the ability to control the crossover, volume and position of the low end is always an advantage. There is no downside.

I fully agree, though the monitors don't necessarily have to be active.

In fact, I think the latter would have long ago become the standard if audiophiles didn't have such a love of big, impressive-looking speakers.

Tim

Possibly. However, getting linearity from upper through mid to low bass is not always a given with a minimonitor/subwoofer system. I think I have achieved this with my system now, and Madfloyd who has Magico M Project speakers appears to agree with me, see his comments on my system thread.

 

[KeithR]

Some of the worst measurements I have ever seen,
http://www.stereophile.com/content/zu-essence-loudspeaker-measurements#pLQsfTXhRHOQyXsS.97

Keith.

That's not how most Zu speakers measure. It's also the least Zu sounding speaker out there. There is no 20db suckout between 3-10khz in my listening room.

 

[AJ Soundfield]

No surprise here. I think the combination of small active monitors and subs can kill a lot of audiophile giants. They're not all great, of course, but some of them are spectacular and the ability to control the crossover, volume and position of the low end is always an advantage. There is no downside.
Tim

Hi Tim,

Actually there is. There are upsides and downsides to both, but there are certainly downsides to the monitor/sub vs full ranged floorstander. The smaller baffle will shift diffraction losses (aka "baffle step" as it is commonly referred to) to higher frequencies. So you lose efficiency in this area. The smaller "monitor" size baffle also limits directional control capabilities.
Perhaps most importantly, for stereo recordings that have interchannel phase differences well below 40 hz, it can be critical to preserve the systems (near) full bandwidth onset response. That can prove far more difficult with spatially displace units. So there is an advantage to having a larger speaker, as least capable down to 40hz or so, typically a floorstander. I'd link you to the paper by JJ discussing this, but my mobile device doesn't like powerpoints.
He advocated for full ranged (again at lest 40hz) radiators (though 5 of them!). Been a while since I read Dr Greisingers papers too, but also urges caution using multi-subs/small speaker combos..for music. For HT, where only smooth amplitude with mono bass over a wide area, matters, sat/sub combos will be just fine.
I could go on, but that's enough for now.

cheers,

AJ

 

[DaveC]

Yeah, if anyone has a pair of Pioneer S-1EX or S-2EX they want to sell please let me know!

As far as Zu, they have gotten better over the years... they used to sound like a PA system but are now more refined. Still not refined but better. They do some things very well.

On single drivers I'd say Omega. I've heard many different single driver speakers including Feastrex field-coil, Voxativ Ampeggio, Lamhorns with AER drivers, and Omega could be compared to any of them regardless of price without being embarrassed. They are the best value for the money in speakers imo.

On conventional speakers Odyssey. Revelator woofers + SS Be tweeters for around $4k. Their $6900 system at RMAF is consistently excellent.

 

[AJ Soundfield]

oooops, double post

 

[andromedaaudio]

Yes there are , never need to go to dealers or shows no more ,in combination with CAT they rule, they are just not on the market yet , to busy playing the options stockmarket
And no you dont get high quality for peanuts , wilson and magico ,avalon kharma dynaudio for example which i appreciate have exxcelent build quality , i m sorry there is no free lunch as quality concerns


DSC_0126 by andromeda61, on Flickr

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Hi Tim,

Actually there is. There are upsides and downsides to both, but there are certainly downsides to the monitor/sub vs full ranged floorstander. The smaller baffle will shift diffraction losses (aka "baffle step" as it is commonly referred to) to higher frequencies. So you lose efficiency in this area. The smaller "monitor" size baffle also limits directional control capabilities.
Perhaps most importantly, for stereo recordings that have interchannel phase differences well below 40 hz, it can be critical to preserve the systems (near) full bandwidth onset response. That can prove far more difficult with spatially displace units. So there is an advantage to having a larger speaker, as least capable down to 40hz or so, typically a floorstander. I'd link you to the paper by JJ discussing this, but my mobile device doesn't like powerpoints.
He advocated for full ranged (again at lest 40hz) radiators (though 5 of them!). Been a while since I read Dr Greisingers papers too, but also urges caution using multi-subs/small speaker combos..for music. For HT, where only smooth amplitude with mono bass over a wide area, matters, sat/sub combos will be just fine.
I could go on, but that's enough for now.

cheers,

AJ

Thanks. That was very informative.

Tim