Are there any "giant-killer" speakers?

[ddk]

Yeah, that's probably fair to say. They were certainly raved about in TAS and elsewhere, and I considered them destination speakers when I bought them. I still admire them in many ways and I still think they're genuinely great speakers, but I don't always enjoy them. Their slightly lean presentation and their ruthless nature don't suit my listening habits any more, especially in a room that adds zero bloom or warmth of its own. I'm looking for something easier to listen to, with a more broad-brush approach than a hyper-detailed approach. Think Sonus Faber and you'll be on the right track (a friend recently replaced his Kharmas with Amati Futuras and to be perfectly honest, I'm dead jealous!!)

Funny thing is, audiophile fickleness and changing fashions, not to mention lack of distribution in the US meaning zero online Kharma-related buzz, have crushed used values even in Europe. They used to sell for 16k-17k Euro here in the mid-naughties, these days you can probably pick up a pair for 4k. They DEFINITELY tick the giant-killer box at that level, especially in the right room and system.

You're right, Kharma speakers aren't lush but they're very musical and natural yet given your room and front end I can see why you're not satisfied. I'm not familiar with the Futuras or your friends system/room but I know that your amps aren't the best match for many SF speakers. Forget TAS or anyone else's opinions, your satisfaction is the only the only thing that matters. I don't have all the information but from what you've provided, here's my two cents;

1- Dump the Wadia for a more musical and natural front end. Wadia's are among the worst sounding digital I ever experienced and there's no way around it. Of course, that my opinion.

2- Remove the absorption material you placed in front of the speaker, first reflection or whatever. If you have major room problems there, change your setup to near field and work on the proper speaker location. The acoustic band-aids aren't effective and uneven in frequency range, plus they rob energy.

3- After the above you can try a sub in your room to add a little body and foundation to your sound, that might be enough to make you happy without changing your speakers.

4- I won't give you theories or parrot someone else's speech on ideal speaker design, only practical hands on experience. Look at JBL 4343 or JBL 300, they'll match your amplifier, will provide you the kind of musical sound that you're looking for and will be within your budget. I can't think of any current speaker that can satisfy your budget, match your amp, flexible with setup and give you the high quality sound you're after. These older JBLs are giants and very few can match in their own right.

david

 

[microstrip]

Tim, have you heard the Magico Q1? They are expensive, so would not qualify as giant killers by any stretch. However, I believe that accuracy was a primary design goal in their development and they are a mini monitor with a small, 7"? mid/bass driver.

Peter,

Perhaps accuracy to real music, not to the signal ...

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

my guess is that near field monitors are designed for on-axis response (taking out room entirely), so that when not used in that situation they aren't optimal. i wouldn't consider that odd dispersion, just a reflection of how they are used. also, i imagine phase response is very different for each application.

perhaps you can point out some examples that are more well rounded that you enjoy. one that comes up occasionally is ATC, which I've never heard.

When I went listening about a year ago at studio store nearby, my favorites were the JBL LSR4326. These are, I understand, being updated and may not be available, but if you get a chance to hear them, do. I didn't notice a narrow sweet spot at all. In fact, I thought the sounded very good, pretty far off axis, and the new waveform which should come with the update will do even better. I also liked the Dynaudio BM6. They're a little rolled off compared to the JBLs, but easy to listen to. No narrow sweet spot there either. I personally own a pair of Avi 9.1s, which are designed much like active studio monitors but with an integrated DAC and remote volume control in a living room-friendly walnut veneer. Mine are hardly state of the art, they are two generations old, but they're still a very convincing listen in a small to mid-sized room. They're also good in a near field configuration, I used them that way for years. I'm aware of their weaknesses, but still enamored with their strengths.

Tim

 

[Diapason]

You're right, Kharma speakers aren't lush but they're very musical and natural yet given your room and front end I can see why you're not satisfied. I'm not familiar with the Futuras or your friends system/room but I know that your amps aren't the best match for many SF speakers. Forget TAS or anyone else's opinions, your satisfaction is the only the only thing that matters. I don't have all the information but from what you've provided, here's my two cents;

1- Dump the Wadia for a more musical and natural front end. Wadia's are among the worst sounding digital I ever experienced and there's no way around it. Of course, that my opinion.

2- Remove the absorption material you placed in front of the speaker, first reflection or whatever. If you have major room problems there, change your setup to near field and work on the proper speaker location. The acoustic band-aids aren't effective and uneven in frequency range, plus they rob energy.

3- After the above you can try a sub in your room to add a little body and foundation to your sound, that might be enough to make you happy without changing your speakers.

4- I won't give you theories or parrot someone else's speech on ideal speaker design, only practical hands on experience. Look at JBL 4343 or JBL 300, they'll match your amplifier, will provide you the kind of musical sound that you're looking for and will be within your budget. I can't think of any current speaker that can satisfy your budget, match your amp, flexible with setup and give you the high quality sound you're after. These older JBLs are giants and very few can match in their own right.

david

Thanks David. I don't agree with number 1, but I can cheerfully accept that opinions differ there. I've actually tried lots of other (digital) sources over the years and brought my Wadia with me to many other systems and shoot-outs, and it always equipped itself admirably. Still, having heard a Lampi Big 7 recently, my head is turned and the long-term writing is on the wall for the Wadia. However, that's a long way down the road.

What's maybe not clear is that I've had this room for 10 years and the speakers for 7 of those. I've tried LOTS of alternative arrangements, positions, sources, amps, cables, more or less sound treatment, etc. Experimentation with subs persuaded me that, yes, they gave more bass (obviously!) but that the fundamental sonic signature I've grown to dislike is unchanged. It's an upper-mid, lower-treble thing that's annoying me, so I suppose that's to be expected. I still totally agree that the Kharmas are fine and musical speakers, but even in other systems now I'm hearing the issues I have at home (to a greater or lesser extent admittedly, but always there) so after 7 years my patience has run out and it's time for a change. As you say, I'm pretty confident that whatever I choose will also require an amp change since the GRAAFs just can't deliver into anything resembling an impedance dip, but we'll cross that bridge when we come to it. Getting my hands on amps to try is WAY easier than speakers. Interesting speakers at this level are just very thin on the ground in Ireland.

I've never seen JBL anything for sale over here, but they pop up often enough in recommendations here that I may have to hunt them out. However, I'm not sure I could cope with the look of them...

I am going to measure the room and try to put some structure on all of this, but since my next plan is to install a small pipe organ in the same room, I might wait until that's completed. I expect that will change things!

 

[Orb]

Peter,

Perhaps accuracy to real music, not to the signal ...

Yeah but you cannot say the same thing about the S5
Martin even says it is the best measuring (ok loose interpretation of the whole paragraph lol) speaker he has had.
Cheers
Orb

 

[microstrip]

Yeah but you cannot say the same thing about the S5
Martin even says it is the best measuring (ok loose interpretation of the whole paragraph lol) speaker he has had.
Cheers
Orb

Yes, many people love the S5 measurements and the Q series sound ...

 

[Orb]

Yes, many people love the S5 measurements and the Q series sound ...

No comment
Think that is for another thread or this one at the time we want it to blow up (because it will be a lot of debating and arguing from everyone with many off-tangents) and be locked down
Cheers
Orb

 

[asiufy]

It's rare a speaker gets mentioned that I actually have access to over here, but I've heard this one. Well, kinda. The guys who run that particular showroom insist on setting them up in a particular nearfield configuration that they consider optimal. Whether they're right or wrong, it's not the way I'd ever listen to them at home, so on some level I was none the wiser after the dem. From what I heard I have some misgivings about how the different drivers gel, but how much of that was down to placement I simply can't tell. If the setup truly WAS optimal, then they don't have the sound I'm looking for.

Hi!

With the Zero.1s, proper placement is anywhere between 2 and 4 meters. Since they're all digital, there's some "magic" going on there in the crossover that creates an ideal "sound environment" in that range. So, less than 2 meters, and the drivers are not properly integrated, and after 4 meters, you start losing some output and cohesiveness.

If I may say, from reading your posts, and the general tone of dissatisfaction, the Zero.1s would be perfect for you. They'll be just as lush and bloomy as a Sonus faber, with none of the down sides. You can keep the Wadia as a transport, and feed it to the Zero.1s, and work on getting a streamer in the future.

Geoff bought his Zero.1s from us, and is pretty happy with it, having simplified his system after many years of typical audiophile setups

http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?vdone&1433614232&openflup&16&4#16

See if you can get your dealer to bring them to your house, and set them up for you, within that 2-4m range!


cheers,
alex

 

[Audio_Karma]

Giant-Killer-System...."Regardless of PRICE!!" Ryan R620 or R630 speakers with Aurelic electronics

http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue73/newport20141.htm

 

[Bruce B]

The best sounding actives I've had in my system are the PTE Phoenix speakers. They even bested my Focal's (with the tweeter turned down!)

 

[rbbert]

The best sounding actives I've had in my system are the PTE Phoenix speakers. They even bested my Focal's (with the tweeter turned down!)

Setup may be particularly important with the Phoenix, because they sounded quite poor at Newport 2015, where I spent some time with them (largely due to Bruce's recommendation, prominently displayed in the room).

 

[wisnon]

The best sounding actives I've had in my system are the PTE Phoenix speakers. They even bested my Focal's (with the tweeter turned down!)

Best Active-DSP speakers I ever heard:

The Goldmund Anatta…however its a blinding $250K a pair!

 

[infinitely baffled]

They even bested my Focal's (with the tweeter turned down!)

isn't that the ONLY way to run big utopias?

seriously i feel for the owners of the models without the adjustable crossover.
with one of the 2 treble settings set to 'soft' my stellas became the mellow companions i appreciate.

on the the topic of the thread, i'm going to nominate the Alon iv as giant killers.
i haven't heard the latest range of nolas, i understand the boxers are superb, but my old Alon iv's really offer incredible performance at the price. soundstaging, musicality, jump factor, bass extension and just plain ludicrous soundstaging made them perfect for reggae, electronica, folk, acoustic, there wasn't a musical style that didn't benefit from their lifelike presentation and enthusiasm.
and lest you think this a case of nostalgia, i still have them in my av system, and they still set a very high standard that regularly induces incredulous head shaking at their abilities

 

[DaveC]

isn't that the ONLY way to run big utopias?

seriously i feel for the owners of the models without the adjustable crossover.
with one of the 2 treble settings set to 'soft' my stellas became the mellow companions i appreciate.

on the the topic of the thread, i'm going to nominate the Alon iv as giant killers.
i haven't heard the latest range of nolas, i understand the boxers are superb, but my old Alon iv's really offer incredible performance at the price. soundstaging, musicality, jump factor, bass extension and just plain ludicrous soundstaging made them perfect for reggae, electronica, folk, acoustic, there wasn't a musical style that didn't benefit from their lifelike presentation and enthusiasm.
and lest you think this a case of nostalgia, i still have them in my av system, and they still set a very high standard that regularly induces incredulous head shaking at their abilities

Lol, I just picked up a pair of restored Dahlquist DQ20 for $100... I'll probably change out some crossover parts and do a few simple improvements then sell them. I just wanted to check them out... they have a good rep but are pretty low-budget construction-wise.

The Nolas I heard at RMAF sounded the worst I've ever heard on a Live Bela Fleck track (A Moment So Close) I use for demos sometimes, just muddy and awful. The guy running the room was not happy with me... OTOH, the TAD Evo floorstanders did the best I've ever heard with that track.

 

[Brucemck2]

Several direct to end audiophile consumer companies offer great sonics at a terrific bargain ....

The big Salk's sound really nice for a traditional, well executed, three way:
http://www.salksound.com/soundscape 12 home.htm

I've always felt that big line arrays punch way above their weight, and when seeking horn-like dynamics prefer them over the smaller Avantgardes:
http://www.selahaudio.com/arrays/
http://www.dagogo.com/gr-research-ls9-loudspeaker-review

I've owned those big Salk's and commissioned bespoke Selah line arrays, and, listened to the GR Research units on multiple occasions. The proprietors of all three places are true gentlemen who will work with you to craft something perfectly suited to your needs (and budget)

 

[NorthStar]

Several direct to end audiophile consumer companies offer great sonics at a terrific bargain ....

I've always felt that big line arrays punch way above their weight, and when seeking horn-like dynamics prefer them over the smaller Avantgardes:

? http://www.selahaudio.com/arrays/

? http://www.dagogo.com/gr-research-ls9-loudspeaker-review

I've owned those big Salk's and commissioned bespoke Selah line arrays, and, listened to the GR Research units on multiple occasions. The proprietors of all three places are true gentlemen who will work with you to craft something perfectly suited to your needs (and budget)

Impressive looking loudspeakers, and impressive pricing to. ...Call me full range impressed. ...Thank you.

 

[hifitommy]

after hearing the new $229 ELAC Debut B5 speakers designed by andrew jones at THE Show Newport this year, i say those are giant killers. driven with a 100wpc bel canto amp, they revealed themselves to be just that.

a pair might find its way into my system one day.

 

[TitaniumTroy]

How about Scansonic, this is Raidho's value speaker brand. I liked what heard from the Raidho's at AXPONA 2015, and Jonathan Vailin does too, as owns a pair of them. He mentions they have a warm sound, and he rates the Raidho tweeter the best on the market right now, so might be to your liking.
http://www.scansonic.dk

I will also second, the Vapor Audio brand, their Perfect Storm was my favorite speaker of the show
at AXPONA 2015 only 30k. But that is their flagship speaker and their lower priced models use some of the same drivers. Their black models have a warmer sound than the white models.

 

[Don C]

Magnepan MG 3.x

Magnepan MG 20.1 or 20.7

Review after review, and very big cult following, over decades, say so!

 

[Atmasphere]

One really obvious 'giant killer' is Audiokinesis. Duke has been consistently designing speakers that are under-priced and outstanding. He is very good about designing speakers that are easy to drive and very revealing, with extended bass performance, especially given the price. His Swarm subwoofer system recently got a Golden Ear Award and his Dreammaker system got one a few years ago- its not like he's in a vacuum. Typically his speakers are in the mid-90s for efficiency, and while I see others (like Conincident) that claim higher efficiency, well all I can say is that Duke is pretty conservative with his numbers.

His speakers work quite well with tube amplifiers. A recent addition to his line, the Zephrin, uses a patented 'Late Ceiling Splash' system to take advantage of how the ear processes sound to improve imaging palpability. Its very easy to drive (I've seen him display with a 30-watt amp), with no need for a subwoofer and holographic imaging. This speaker has gotten a lot of nice comments at shows, for example the recent Axpona: http://theaudiotraveler.com/2015/05...diokinesis-atma-sphere-exogal-aurender-kuzma/