Any better midrange driver than an electostat?

Phelonious Ponk

New Member
Jun 30, 2010
8,677
23
0
Now I'm totally confused. The ideal amp with electrostats seems to be an SET tube amp, except when it is a bright, forward PRaT-generating Naim, except when it is massively powerful solid state. Maybe we should merge this with the "Are audiophiles wired differently"" thread. :)

Tim
 

DaveyF

Well-Known Member
Jul 31, 2010
6,129
181
458
La Jolla, Calif USA
When I used to own Acoustat's , they were definitely a speaker that favored tube amps..Although the Acoustat amp was a ss design.
One thing that I think stats simply do not do well, IMHO is Dynamics...plus their ability to move air is very restricted, which is why I am now
firmly in the dynamic driver camp. OTOH, one of the best sounds I have ever heard came from stacked original Quads...
 

Mike Lavigne

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member
Apr 25, 2010
12,602
11,693
4,410
Now I'm totally confused. The ideal amp with electrostats seems to be an SET tube amp, except when it is a bright, forward PRaT-generating Naim, except when it is massively powerful solid state. Maybe we should merge this with the "Are audiophiles wired differently"" thread. :)

Tim

well........amplifier choice has always been a crap shoot based on one's reference.

if you never heard a Quad stat panel on a great sounding SET you might love it on the Naim. but then again, you might also dismiss the Quad as 'incomplete' if you only hear it on the Naim.

no doubt the Quads are a speaker that has more than average needs from an amplifier so the impression of it will be more than typically amplifier dependant. every electrostat i know of is like that to a degree.

different viewpoints on an ideal amplifier match for the Quads is what would be logical.

consider Magico speakers. some people think a decent solid state amp is just fine. i find that the slight 'cold' character and relative inefficiency of the Magico demands great high power amplifiication. i think that is because my reference and expectation of performance is in a particular place. am i right? no more than i might be for the Quads.

it comes down to what is considered acceptable. and if your reference is in one place then good. then there is simply a matter of taste and preference. which is an individual thing. so different viewpoints on amps for the Quad is a normal thing and not something that should be surprising.
 

Phelonious Ponk

New Member
Jun 30, 2010
8,677
23
0
well........amplifier choice has always been a crap shoot based on one's reference.

if you never heard a Quad stat panel on a great sounding SET you might love it on the Naim. but then again, you might also dismiss the Quad as 'incomplete' if you only hear it on the Naim.

no doubt the Quads are a speaker that has more than average needs from an amplifier so the impression of it will be more than typically amplifier dependant. every electrostat i know of is like that to a degree.

different viewpoints on an ideal amplifier match for the Quads is what would be logical.

consider Magico speakers. some people think a decent solid state amp is just fine. i find that the slight 'cold' character and relative inefficiency of the Magico demands great high power amplifiication. i think that is because my reference and expectation of performance is in a particular place. am i right? no more than i might be for the Quads.

it comes down to what is considered acceptable. and if your reference is in one place then good. then there is simply a matter of taste and preference. which is an individual thing. so different viewpoints on amps for the Quad is a normal thing and not something that should be surprising.

Not terribly surprised, Mike, just amused. But if you separate it from a personal reference, there is a thing that electrostats are known for (built for?) -- speed, transparency and clarity in the midrange and trebles, an almost uncanny separation of instruments in the acoustic space. Surely there is a broad amplifier approach that supports this characteristic strength best? With massive SS monoblocks at one end of the scale and SET at the other...no, probably not...

Tim
 

Mike Lavigne

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member
Apr 25, 2010
12,602
11,693
4,410
Not terribly surprised, Mike, just amused. But if you separate it from a personal reference, there is a thing that electrostats are known for (built for?) -- speed, transparency and clarity in the midrange and trebles, an almost uncanny separation of instruments in the acoustic space. Surely there is a broad amplifier approach that supports this characteristic strength best? With massive SS monoblocks at one end of the scale and SET at the other...no, probably not...

Tim

i own ribbon tweeters and Stax electrostat headphones; but not a full range stat speaker system. my perspectives about them are just observations i've made over the years.

like anything; to get those great things that an electrostat can do there are compromises that are made. i suppose it comes down to how one views those compromises, what is required to balance those things out to meet the individual tastes and synergy in any particular case.

for me i've never really got into big electrostats myself as an everyday speaker (compromised bass in one way or another).....however the Quads have touched me with particular amplifiers for reasons i stated. i really enjoy Quads with high quality mid powered SET amps. otherwise their drawbacks outweigh their assets.
 

caesar

Well-Known Member
May 30, 2010
4,300
775
1,698
i own ribbon tweeters and Stax electrostat headphones; but not a full range stat speaker system. my perspectives about them are just observations i've made over the years.

like anything; to get those great things that an electrostat can do there are compromises that are made. i suppose it comes down to how one views those compromises, what is required to balance those things out to meet the individual tastes and synergy in any particular case.

I kind of find that the stax headphones have a glorious midrange but are "weak in the bass" and have poorer dynamics than other headphones just like their bigger brethren. When selecting a pair of headphones, I did not like those compromises, since I live with large stats every day.
 

Gregadd

WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
10,575
1,794
1,850
Metro DC
I think the CJ MV50 was a good match for the Quads.
 

Mike Lavigne

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member
Apr 25, 2010
12,602
11,693
4,410
I kind of find that the stax headphones have a glorious midrange but are "weak in the bass" and have poorer dynamics than other headphones just like their bigger brethren. When selecting a pair of headphones, I did not like those compromises, since I live with large stats every day.

besides the Stax O2 mK1 headphones and Stax SRM-717 amplifier, i've ordered the new Stax 009 headphones, and ordered the Blue Hawaii SE amplifier.

i also own the Sennheiser HD-800 headphones and a Woo Audio 6SE 'maxxed' headphone amp.

the Stax is in a whole different league than the dynamic set-up for the good things it does do. you want to listen to it. i have a speaker set-up which i mostly use so the Stax does not need to do everything; so long as it does some very special things.
 

JackD201

WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
12,319
1,429
1,820
Manila, Philippines
I think the CJ MV50 was a good match for the Quads.

How were the MV50's different from the MV60s? I recall one of the used el34s and the other I'm not sure if it was 6550s or KTs.

The best I've heard 2905s is in a system using a 3 chassis First Sound preamp and Airtight 211 SETs. Big tone, extremely coherent. Not what I would call "accurate" but definitely very very pleasing.
 

JackD201

WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
12,319
1,429
1,820
Manila, Philippines
ooops double posted
 

Gregadd

WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
10,575
1,794
1,850
Metro DC
How were the MV50's different from the MV60s? I recall one of the used el34s and the other I'm not sure if it was 6550s or KTs.

The best I've heard 2905s is in a system using a 3 chassis First Sound preamp and Airtight 211 SETs. Big tone, extremely coherent. Not what I would call "accurate" but definitely very very pleasing.

They were both el 34 designs. One 45 watt. One 55 watt. The premier 11 used 6550 tubes.
 

Phelonious Ponk

New Member
Jun 30, 2010
8,677
23
0
besides the Stax O2 mK1 headphones and Stax SRM-717 amplifier, i've ordered the new Stax 009 headphones, and ordered the Blue Hawaii SE amplifier.

i also own the Sennheiser HD-800 headphones and a Woo Audio 6SE 'maxxed' headphone amp.

the Stax is in a whole different league than the dynamic set-up for the good things it does do. you want to listen to it. i have a speaker set-up which i mostly use so the Stax does not need to do everything; so long as it does some very special things.

Wow, with all those Stax in the house, those poor Senns can be getting much of a workout. Send them this way, Mike. I'll break them in for you. No charge. :)

Tim
 

tony ky ma

Industry Expert
Aug 21, 2010
630
5
930
Whitby Ontario Canada
besides the Stax O2 mK1 headphones and Stax SRM-717 amplifier, i've ordered the new Stax 009 headphones, and ordered the Blue Hawaii SE amplifier.

i also own the Sennheiser HD-800 headphones and a Woo Audio 6SE 'maxxed' headphone amp.

the Stax is in a whole different league than the dynamic set-up for the good things it does do. you want to listen to it. i have a speaker set-up which i mostly use so the Stax does not need to do everything; so long as it does some very special things.
Mike
Stax come with tube amp inside the power supply, I use that in live recording for monitoring, but in listening, I like the Jecklin Float (Swiss made) without power amp( need extra power amp in 8 ohm out put, I use SET to drive them too) is better sounding because they have the biggest panels (4" x 5") in headphone, a very low of bass that you can hear but only a bit heavy for long listening to hang on my head
tony ma
 

LL21

Well-Known Member
Dec 26, 2010
14,430
2,518
1,448
How were the MV50's different from the MV60s? I recall one of the used el34s and the other I'm not sure if it was 6550s or KTs.

The best I've heard 2905s is in a system using a 3 chassis First Sound preamp and Airtight 211 SETs. Big tone, extremely coherent. Not what I would call "accurate" but definitely very very pleasing.
the MV60 original used EL34s...the SE edition then switched to 6550. i do not know about the mv50. I have heard and A/Bd the 2905s vs the guarneri homages with mid-powered tubes. Pathos maybe? i liked both...preferred the Guarneris. Was surprised by that. i think the cones delivered slightly more solid tone than the quads. Guarneris also delivered a magic that matched that of the quads to my ear...specifically in the midrange. i think both were great...more about personal preference than "better" or "worse".
 

Gregadd

WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
10,575
1,794
1,850
Metro DC
the MV60 original used EL34s...the SE edition then switched to 6550. i do not know about the mv50. I have heard and A/Bd the 2905s vs the guarneri homages with mid-powered tubes. Pathos maybe? i liked both...preferred the Guarneris. Was surprised by that. i think the cones delivered slightly more solid tone than the quads. Guarneris also delivered a magic that matched that of the quads to my ear...specifically in the midrange. i think both were great...more about personal preference than "better" or "worse".

Curiously the CJ website does not seem to mention the MV 60SE under vintage products.
I did find this review in Soundstage:
...For years I owned an MV55 amp. Conrad-Johnson has had a version of this amp in production for years -- a classic EL34-based push-pull amp using four output tubes to create around 50Wpc, give or take. I loved this amp. The bass was a little loose, the top end a little soft, but oh that midrange.

So when C-J introduced the MV60, using the better transformers found in their Premier-series amps, I was ready to trade. The MV60 tightened the bass, extended the highs, and even improved (could it be possible?) those middle frequencies. Paired with my JMlab Micro Utopia speakers, this was a match made in heaven.

Then along came the MV60SE. The SE version uses the 6550 tube instead of the EL34. Perhaps C-J was responding to all of those fans who had love affairs with the Premier 11, which was discontinued when the standard MV60 premiered. Like the MV60SE, the Premier 11 also used a quartet of 6550 tubes. The 6550 output tube has always had a reputation for steadfast bass control and detail. The EL34 has the midrange. So now you have a choice..."
 

JackD201

WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
12,319
1,429
1,820
Manila, Philippines
The MV60 I saw must have been an SE then. Thanks guys :)
 

kach22i

WBF Founding Member
Apr 21, 2010
1,592
210
1,635
Ann Arbor, Michigan
www.kachadoorian.com
you said even sweet tubes can't drive horn with good sound
I did not mean to imply that.

Many horns sound very good to me. However maybe in the very limited experience I have with them (never owned any) there is a chance they were being slightly over-driven. This may only show up over long periods of time or upon leaving the room and suddenly realizing a strain is gone.

Enjoy your tubes and horns, I have no issue with it.

I'm a stat guy (or flat panel guy) and know it.
 

microstrip

VIP/Donor
May 30, 2010
20,807
4,702
2,790
Portugal
I think the CJ MV50 was a good match for the Quads.

The MV125 (4x6550 per channel) was even better for the Quads - the extra control in the bass and power easiness made the Quads sing in a different way. The Premier 9A was a perfect preamplifier for this system. But it could drive with great ease also the Soundlab A4s - my first Soundlabs, using a separate bass/middle frequency panel and a faceted tweeter. BTW , it was such a god system that sometime ago I found an old MV125 selling for nice price at local shop and I could not resist - it is now being checked.

The MV52 that replaced the MV50 used the same EL34 tubes and was much better sounding. The main difference was that the MV125 and MV52 did not use electrolytic capacitors in the power supply, they used polypropylene capacitors for the HV supply.
 

FrantzM

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
6,455
29
405
Hi
OT

In defense of horns ... In most demo horns are pushed to play loud which most of them will do with ease. Coupled with that that they are more directionnal than most drivers, they can "project" quite high SPL almost straight inside the ears which can lead to aural discomfort. Well set-up horns have a delicacy that few but very few other technology possess. It can be seductive. A serious audition of a well set-up horn system can make quite a few convert. If you think horns are loud and "shouty" ... You are mistaken ...
It can get very complex with horns... The quality/geometry of the horn, the quality of the driver itself has an impact on the final sound.. and to make things more complicated there are example of horns fitted with electrostatic drivers..

End of OT
 
Kach said;
“I'm a stat guy (or flat panel guy) and know it.”

It might not seem like it but actually, while doing “the job” a different way, a proper horn and an electrostatic speaker can have some similar features.

By that I mean the result can be more similar than to a direct radiator system.

For example, if you put in a sine wave at any frequency and measure the result with a microphone and then compare the phases, one is confused. If one removes the phase shift which is present due to the time it took for the sound to get to the microphone, one is left with the acoustic phase of the transducer. That with the amplitude curve describe the speakers response in amplitude AND where in time with respect to the input, the signal emerges.
With an electrostatic speaker, the thing producing the ‘force” which moves the diaphragm is the voltage thus the attractive force is always “in phase” with the input voltage.
In that case, put a square wave in and a square wave comes out, or anything else you put in.

The fly swimming in the beer is the speaker requires a high voltage signal which is supplied by something like a tube output transformer connected backwards.
That is fine, the issue though is that the stators have a capacitance between them and what you are doing with the signal is changing that voltage which being a capacitor resists until you have put current into it.

Reflected back through the transformer, the electrostatic can look pretty different than a ‘normal” speaker to the amplifier, in that is has significant capacitive reactance. While Tube amplifiers (being a very wide band device individually) had entirely different limitations. Solid state amplifiers, especially early on, had safe operating area “protection’ which could easily intrude into operation driving some electrostats at even a modest level. Tube amps like the Mcintosh m-60’s and 240’s I used to have would laugh at my electrostats even my big homemade ones.
Part B of the large element in general is they have a radiation null 90 degrees off axis and this means much less reflected sound from the walls and that allows the recording’s stereo image to be heard most clearly farther from the speakers (the near field zone, dominated by direct sound).

A direct radiator when it is “small” compared to wavelength is a constant acceleration device where the excursion increases by four when the frequency is halved. This is needed because the woofer is a fixed physical size BUT the sound it is producing has different wavelengths. As the frequency falls, the radiator is getting smaller acoustically and so less and less efficient as a radiator. The up shot is the excursion has to increase by four for each octave you go down to have flat response which the radiator is small compared to the wavelength.

It is a woofers mass that is being accelerated back and forth but in an electrodynamic motor (a DC motor like a voice coil) it is current that produces force. When the motor converts the electrical to mechanical domain, it reflects the mass back as a capacitance. As the signal here (sound) is the voltage across the capacitor, one finds the acoustic phase of this source generally lags over the mid part of it’s range and only reaches “zero” somewhere around Rmin in the impedance curve.
The result here is the drivers acoustic phase is not the same as the voltage and depending on frequency it may lag or even lead the voltage signal phase.
Thus, this device generally cannot reproduce a complex signal like a square wave because the different frequencies emerge at the speakers acoustic phase shift which re-arranges the signal ie; no preservation of complex signal waveshape.
The problem with all loudspeakers is the problems they have increase faster than the rate of the input signal.
By that I mean in addition to the real signal, it also produces distortion at X multiples and some noise and if you increase the signal 20dB (100X), the loudness may not increase 20dB 100X.
At some point, the problems are loud enough for the subjective judgment that sounds bad”.
I probably would still have electrostats except this is where they didn’t do it for me.

Horns use an electrodynamic driver but in a different way, they attempt to grab a hold of a large slab of the air and connect it to the tiny radiator.
A horn can be as high as 50% efficiency (for an omni directional speaker a sensitivity of 109dB for 1 Watt) or even more but only over a bandwidth.
A horn can also preserve the signal wave shape keeping in mind the bandwidth limitations.
Horns can also have high directivity and they can be made so that the radiation angle is nearly constant over a wide band so they are the only solution in large spaces and bad rooms where the room issues are much worse.
The hard part is they do not cover the “whole range”, they require equalization which while it exactly compliments what the driver needs, it only does so if you know what that is and can design it. Bottom line, they are much more difficult to design and align.
While the first part can be accomplished with DSP, the physical spacing between sources is not fixable electronically so horn systems made of discrete horns produces polar patterns which are not potential customer friendly and so are not discussed.
The original uses for horns took advantage of the high sensitivity, these types of horns from the old days are mostly what is used in the high efficiency hifi area.

The most recent horns like what I do at work use the most modern drivers and approaches I can think of etc, focusing on high quality sound at high acoustic power, with constant directivity used in large spaces.

Here when used in a living room instead, a speaker like the sh-50 radiates a portion of a sphere just like an ESL-63, it radiates in time like a single source, like an ESL-63 and can reproduce a square wave too but goes lower in frequency, is about 15dB more efficient and can go also can go about 30dB louder if asked.
See if you can guess what electrostatic speaker has a special spot in my heart and shaped my efforts haha.
Best,
Tom Danley
Danley Sound Labs
 

About us

  • What’s Best Forum is THE forum for high end audio, product reviews, advice and sharing experiences on the best of everything else. This is THE place where audiophiles and audio companies discuss vintage, contemporary and new audio products, music servers, music streamers, computer audio, digital-to-analog converters, turntables, phono stages, cartridges, reel-to-reel tape machines, speakers, headphones and tube and solid-state amplification. Founded in 2010 What’s Best Forum invites intelligent and courteous people of all interests and backgrounds to describe and discuss the best of everything. From beginners to life-long hobbyists to industry professionals, we enjoy learning about new things and meeting new people, and participating in spirited debates.

Quick Navigation

User Menu

Steve Williams
Site Founder | Site Owner | Administrator
Ron Resnick
Site Co-Owner | Administrator
Julian (The Fixer)
Website Build | Marketing Managersing