Any better midrange driver than an electostat?

[kach22i]

Horns make my ears bleed over time even with sweet tubes driving them.

Boxes don't sound real, good boxes are just good boxes.

Open baffle can't always hang with the big boys but they try very hard.

 

[microstrip]

Frantz-Both panels went dead on my pair of Aerius stats and I replaced them. I see ESL-63 speakers for sale with dead panels so I would say the problem with stat panels going bad over time isn't limited to ML. I hope others will chime in here if they know about stat panels going bad over time. I know it's common with ML stats so I don't know why it would be just limited to them.

Having some experience with both I can add a few lines. Old Martin Logan panels went bad because their resistivity increased after many years and they loosed sensitivity. As panels were inexpensive people just replaced them. They had some series of very short live panels due to manufacturing problems but ML replaced them free of charge. I have no experience with more recent panels using modern film technologies, but we can expect they will last long.

Quad panels were intrinsically reliable and long lasting, but they had some series with problems due to the glue used to bond the film to the plastic stator or even the stator perforated plate to the stator frame. Most problems on Quad speaker are due to misuse, mainly excessive loudness. I have seen ESL57 speakers, still with their original panels aged more than 40 years playing perfectly, and my ESL 63 are still in mint condition (although one more recent pair had several panels replaced because of the glue problem).

The Soundlab A1s of a friend of mine are more than 25 years old and they are still playing.

 

[Robh3606]

Horns make my ears bleed over time even with sweet tubes driving them.

You obviously are either not listening to the right ones or the person running them is clueless. What have you had experince with?

Rob

 

[microstrip]

Microstrip,

I have heard the Quad 57's on several occasions, but I am not as familiar with Quad 63's. I have also heard a lot of folks say that the Soundlab is just a "giant Quad." I am not sure I agree, as I find the bass of the Soundlab better. Nevertheless, how does the midrange of the '63 compare to the Soundlab? Thanks

Compared with an ESL63 the Soundlab midrange is colored . However, IMHO, the Soundlab has a scale all over the spectrum that outweighs the Quad midrange. However the Quad ESL63 is more accurate in voices and piano. Also, properly placed and amplified the image of the Quads is more pinpoint that that of the A1s.

Some people that the modified ESL63 based system using four reinforced speakers existing in the famous SME listening room has simultaneously the midrange purity and the scale. Recently a well known Absolute Sounds reviewer - I think it was Neil Gader - listened to this system, but unhappily did not report on how it sounds.

 

[fas42]

However the Quad ESL63 is more accurate in voices and piano. Also, properly placed and amplified the image of the Quads is more pinpoint that that of the A1s.

I have to say I don't get this Quad thing. I only recently finally heard them; the latest versions, driven by the "new" Quad tube gear. Quite reasonable but nothing to get excited about, I would have thought ....

Frank

 

[microstrip]

I have to say I don't get this Quad thing. I only recently finally heard them; the latest versions, driven by the "new" Quad tube gear. Quite reasonable but nothing to get excited about, I would have thought ....

Frank

Frank,

Unless you own them , or visit a friend who has successfuly tuned a system for them, you will never get the Quad thing. Quad speakers are known to sound misearable at shows, where typical sound levels are much louder than they can play and room conditions are particularly inadequate for this type of speaker. IMHO, the "new" quad tube gear is not a good match for the Quads - it is underpowered for them.

 

[kach22i]

You obviously are either not listening to the right ones or the person running them is clueless. What have you had experince with?

Rob

Everyone's ears and brain are different, my buddy says after a while horns make him run screaming out of the room. Not so bad with me, but there is a sense of relief or a loweing of stress when walking out of a horn loaded room after being in there a while. I'm sure large doses of alcohol would help, but I try to avoid such self medication when I can.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

I have to say I don't get this Quad thing. I only recently finally heard them; the latest versions, driven by the "new" Quad tube gear. Quite reasonable but nothing to get excited about, I would have thought ....

Frank

the problem with Quads (and any electrostat for that matter) is that they require very special amplifiers to sound great. and amps with the balls to deal with a stat and still sound natural and refined are rare and likely expensive. so if you hear Quads with 'pedestrian' amps they will sound like a very low distortion speaker with pedestrian amps (there is no warmth and weight to mask anything), and a speaker without the bottom 2 octaves and without great dynamics. kinda anemic and still nice for certain types of music but not with a wide appeal.

OTOH if you hear Quads with very special amps then even though they still have limitations what they do right can be intoxicating.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

the problem with Quads (and any electrostat for that matter) is that they require very special amplifiers to sound great. and amps with the balls to deal with a stat and still sound natural and refined are rare and likely expensive. so if you hear Quads with 'pedestrian' amps they will sound like a very low distortion speaker with pedestrian amps (there is no warmth and weight to mask anything), and a speaker without the bottom 2 octaves and without great dynamics. kinda anemic and still nice for certain types of music but not with a wide appeal.

OTOH if you hear Quads with very special amps then even though they still have limitations what they do right can be intoxicating.

Any insight into the technical qualities of the amps that make them sing? What to look for?

Tim

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Any insight into the technical qualities of the amps that make them sing? What to look for?

Tim

Tim,

i'm not any sort of expert on amplifier circuit design. and i don't even necessarily remeber specific amplifier models.

i've heard Quads a few times on Kondo Audio Note SET's sound magnificent; i cannot remember the specific Audio Note amplifier, but it was likely approx $50k+. i have a friend with Quads using highly modified 811 tube based monoblocks which are wonderful. Tony Ky Ma describes some "SET 838 (45 watt) with 866 mercury to drive Quad ESL 63" which i would guess sound wonderful.

basically you need a tube amplifier in the 40-150 watt range with stunning clarity and naturalness....and that is going to be expensive or highly modified.

what i'm trying to say is when you have a speaker that is a tough load but it's very low distortion and maybe a bit 'lean' and 'flat' sounding; every wart of an amp will be laid bare. like a high intensity full spectrom light; things will look un-natural unless they are perfect.

so don't blame the messinger for the amplifier message.

 

[tony ky ma]

Any insight into the technical qualities of the amps that make them sing? What to look for?

Tim

A high power SET 30 watt plus sub for best classical music reproduction
tony ma

 

[Robh3606]

Hello kach22i

Everyone's ears and brain are different,

Well that's a given we all don't like the same things.

my buddy says after a while horns make him run screaming out of the room. Not so bad with me, but there is a sense of relief or a loweing of stress when walking out of a horn loaded room after being in there a while.

That's why I asked you what horns you have listened too. There seems to be quite a bit of prejuduce about horns. I think most of it is from experience at shows and listening to older set-ups. Many of the older classic systems can sound colored especially if they are not dialed in. The more modern horn systems sound much better and the best of them have none of the audible horn coloration that is typical in some of the older systems. When they are set-up properly there is no stress or strain and they can sound effortless with excellent speed, clarity, resolution and dynamics.

More in tune with this discussion the higher spl capability gives horns a decide advantage over the Quads as an example. They are inherently more capable or rendering accurate dynamics and not suffering from dynamic compression at realistic play back levels. Limiting in recordings is bad enough certainly don't want my speakers adding some more on well recorded program material. The music lives in the midrange so dynamic accuracy is critical in this range.

JMHO Rob

 

[Steve Williams]

Rob

I notice that you build speakers. Do you build horn speakers

 

[FrantzM]

Hello kach22i



Well that's a given we all don't like the same things.



That's why I asked you what horns you have listened too. There seems to be quite a bit of prejuduce about horns. I think most of it is from experience at shows and listening to older set-ups. Many of the older classic systems can sound colored especially if they are not dialed in. The more modern horn systems sound much better and the best of them have none of the audible horn coloration that is typical in some of the older systems. When they are set-up properly there is no stress or strain and they can sound effortless with excellent speed, clarity, resolution and dynamics.

More in tune with this discussion the higher spl capability gives horns a decide advantage over the Quads as an example. They are inherently more capable or rendering accurate dynamics and not suffering from dynamic compression at realistic play back levels. Limiting in recordings is bad enough certainly don't want my speakers adding some more on well recorded program material. The music lives in the midrange so dynamic accuracy is critical in this range.

JMHO Rob

I agree...

I also think that several modern day SS amplifiers will make the Quad sing. As a matter of fact I remember hearing back in the days (1992~1993) a person driving an ESL 63 with Krell KSA-200. It was to me a curious, a nonsensical pairing... Along with a Quad + Spectral DMA-180 pairing that was the best sound I heard from the ESL-63 and during these years I had Quad ESL-63 driven by Quicksilver amps.
The ESL 63 still certain things in a very special way. They are not (like any dipole) a drop-in-the-room-and-be-happy kind of speakers. You have to work with them and the room. They are more fussy about amplification than it is thought and they are limited in loudness. They do great in small dynamic nuances, for bigger stuff look elsewhere ... I am not sure they have yet made speakers that reproduce female voice as faithfully as those ...

 

[caesar]

Interesting replies about the Quads. Most of the times I have heard the Quads, they were driven by Naim. I like Naim, but I never found that combination as the one for me. I wonder if that is because Naim does not make gear that has high power ratings, for my taste?

Another interesting thought about the Quad and stats in general, is that there is a general rule in stat land = "the bigger the panel, the better the sound." The Soundlabs, with their huge panels, definitely have a lot more nuance and inner detail to my ears than any of the Quads, Sanders, and Martin Logans that I have heard (in addition to better bass). Does anyone have any idea how Quad does that fab midrange in a fairly small size?

 

[caesar]

So what is it technically about drivers used by box speakers that make it really hard to match stats (and horns), unless one is paying MEGA bucks for the speaker?

 

[tony ky ma]

Horns make my ears bleed over time even with sweet tubes driving them.

Boxes don't sound real, good boxes are just good boxes.

Open baffle can't always hang with the big boys but they try very hard.

Hi Kach22i
It is fun in reading your diy speaker posts,I am horn lover but I don't have many knowledge in design speaker, you said even sweet tubes can't drive horn with good sound, I think you use beam power tubes in push pull to drive because you know McIntosh well, IMO to drive a compassion horn driver do not need too big power for them, if direct drive by amp, a 1 to 4 watt direct heating single end tube amp is quite good enough, over power will get worse . so combine with bass in box the design of net work is very critical for a single amp to drive in good result, I will not feel tire in long listen from my 4 way 4 amp system because the mid-high range amp is 4 watt, sub is 50 watt, mid-low 12 watt and super high is 8 watt. in this ratio no bleeding in ear
tony ma

 

[microstrip]

I agree...

I also think that several modern day SS amplifiers will make the Quad sing. As a matter of fact I remember hearing back in the days (1992~1993) a person driving an ESL 63 with Krell KSA-200. It was to me a curious, a nonsensical pairing... Along with a Quad + Spectral DMA-180 pairing that was the best sound I heard from the ESL-63 and during these years I had Quad ESL-63 driven by Quicksilver amps.

Very true - I also had direct experience with the ESL63 driven by a Krell KSA300s. The only problem was that they loved very powerful amplifiers and even protected with the input crowbar circuit (that could kill many amplifiers ...) they would not last for long with these amplifiers. As you said, the sound of female voices was so nice and pure that you always had the temptation to increase volume a little, forgetting about the energy of the sopranos until they suddenly shutdown.

The system of the SME listening room I referred to used the Krell Reference mono block amplifiers. (KRS-200) .

Looking back - I also spend a few years with an Electrocompaniet AW100, ARC SP8 preamplifier and the ESL63. Only later I could afford an used ARC D70 II.

 

[Robh3606]

I notice that you build speakers. Do you build horn speakers

Hello Steve

Yes and actually both horn and dynamic types. The horns are my personal favorites though. It's quite a bit of fun doing so. The speaker in my avatar is the last build I finished about a year back. I am going to cut wood for a second LFE sub for my HT set-up. After that who knows there is always something to try.

Rob

 

[Steve Williams]

very nice Rob