Any better midrange driver than an electostat?

[Phelonious Ponk]

Hi Tim
Do you know about Jecklin Float static headphone ? Swiss made, IMO it is better than many other brands because they have a very big panel stick to your ears and will not take more room from your place, the only thing is a little heavy hanging to your head.
tony ma

I know of them, Tony. I've never heard them.

Tim

 

[FrantzM]

Hi

I wonder if this remains true(That's the best midrange is those from electrostat) . I have owned the ESL 63 and countless of planar ... The best midrange I had heard thus far was always from the Electrostat the Original Quad and the ELl 63 in front. Many years alter heard the Alexandria, then the Rockport Ankarra...case closed cone speakers can do as well and in the cases I mentioned it is almost spooky.

I concur on this with microstrip .. where I diverge was the synergy thing .. The Alexandria would produce its magical midrange even if driven by a HTIB seems like ...

 

[mep]

Here is what I know of stats: I owned a pair of ML Aerius (the original) speakers for many years and I loved them. Stats have a purity and transparency to them that when you hear them, you know they sound ‘right.’ There is also that speed thing they do. They are like an F1 car going around a hair-pin curve. They stop and start on a dime.

What they don’t do very well is dynamics and bass. There is a loudness ceiling that is like a brick wall. The much beloved ESL-57 didn’t have much space to the brick wall. The ESL-63 sounded beautiful, but again it didn’t go loud and had no real bass. It also had the curious effect of sounding like you were up in the balcony looking down on the performance.

I have not heard any of the mega-buck speaker systems and have no idea how close they come to the purity, speed, and transparency of stats in the midrange. I have to slum it with a pair of speakers that retailed for $5400, not $54,000. Overall, I like my speakers better than the stats I owned because they do so much more.

And one other thing about stats that people don’t talk about like the crazy aunt in the attic. The panels don’t last. They are like vacuum tubes. They start out strong and gradually go weak until they die.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

I haven't heard anything that comes close, but I haven't heard everything. IMHO, electrostats rule in producing the most realistic sound, other than the bass.

Anyone make a driver that is close or better?

i've heard big Apogee's, Mag 20.1's, Quads, Soundlabs, Martin Logans, and i own Stax Omega2, Mk1 headphones. there is something special and particularly transparent, linear, and 'fast' how these transducers reproduce the midrange and treble.

in a different but similar way, i also enjoy the big MBL 101e Radialstrrahler's.

of all those speakers, i think the Quads come closest to a realistic mid-range.

all these type speakers and drivers can be addicting.

but as far as sounding completely realistic in the midrange, they are lacking compared to my reference, which is my Evolution Acoustics MM3's due to the lack of bass weight. speakers which rely on an electrostic device to do most of the frequency range either lack coherency in the mid-bass or sound light weight. they also require lots of power to move them which limits choices of the most refined amplifiers, which further contributes to the ultimate midrange performance.

i prefer the combination of a ribbon tweeter, and ceramic mid-range, and the 2 15" integrated powered subwoofers. the ribbon is an electrotat, the ceramic mid-range is extremely fast for a dynamic driver due to it's very light but very stiff design, and you get 'stat' like coherency. it all works for a rich, full bodied, but still transparent and linear, midrange. and it's 93db, 6ohm efficient so it's easy to drive.

a month ago i had a set of low powered tube monoblocks on my MM3's, less than 1 watt. these amps were based on the 45 tube and used mercury vapor tube rectification. yes, they were underpowered for my speakers and room to some degree. and i'm having a set of these amps made for me with about 4 watts per channel using the 2A3 tube. but; the mid-range of the MM3's using these amps was 'to die for' and no stat could even think about it.

just my personal viewpoint.

 

[microstrip]

(...) I concur on this with microstrip .. where I diverge was the synergy thing .. The Alexandria would produce its magical midrange even if driven by a HTIB seems like ...

My comment about synergy was only about the electrostatics, that I have long experience - not the Alexandria. But I would not mind getting experienced with them!

 

[Gregadd]

I will say that except for the most subterranean bass notes I prefer the coherency of dipole bass at the expense of weight and authority. Of course ideally I would want both.

 

[tony ky ma]

i've heard big Apogee's, Mag 20.1's, Quads, Soundlabs, Martin Logans, and i own Stax Omega2, Mk1 headphones. there is something special and particularly transparent, linear, and 'fast' how these transducers reproduce the midrange and treble.

in a different but similar way, i also enjoy the big MBL 101e Radialstrrahler's.

of all those speakers, i think the Quads come closest to a realistic mid-range.

all these type speakers and drivers can be addicting.

but as far as sounding completely realistic in the midrange, they are lacking compared to my reference, which is my Evolution Acoustics MM3's due to the lack of bass weight. speakers which rely on an electrostic device to do most of the frequency range either lack coherency in the mid-bass or sound light weight. they also require lots of power to move them which limits choices of the most refined amplifiers, which further contributes to the ultimate midrange performance.

i prefer the combination of a ribbon tweeter, and ceramic mid-range, and the 2 15" integrated powered subwoofers. the ribbon is an electrotat, the ceramic mid-range is extremely fast for a dynamic driver due to it's very light but very stiff design, and you get 'stat' like coherency. it all works for a rich, full bodied, but still transparent and linear, midrange. and it's 93db, 6ohm efficient so it's easy to drive.

a month ago i had a set of low powered tube monoblocks on my MM3's, less than 1 watt. these amps were based on the 45 tube and used mercury vapor tube rectification. yes, they were underpowered for my speakers and room to some degree. and i'm having a set of these amps made for me with about 4 watts per channel using the 2A3 tube. but; the mid-range of the MM3's using these amps was 'to die for' and no stat could even think about it.

just my personal viewpoint.

Mike
I showed my friend's system in member's gallery, SET 838 (45 watt) with 866 mercury to drive Quad ESL 63 and SET 805 (50 watt) also with 866 to drive 15" Altec for sub 80hz and under, SET 826 (8 watt) to drive JBL 2405 for over 15 K, this set up very good for classical music reproduction especially strings include cello and double bass too
tony ma

 

[mep]

I will say that except for the most subterranean bass notes I prefer the coherency of dipole bass at the expense of weight and authority. Of course ideally I would want both.

We can never have it all in this hobby. Everything is a compromise. You always have to trade something in order to get something. Sometimes you want back what you traded and you have to start over.

 

[Gregadd]

Very true. Todays' groundbreaking effort is tomorrows 'standard.

 

[FrantzM]

Hi

Let's not get too far. Midrange reproduction was the hallmark of (some) electrostats. I think right now this is not the case I have heard midrange from other drivers type that rivals what I did hear from the Quad and CLS and Maggies. I owned all of these.
I have not yet heard the MM3. I remember however being quite taken by the midrange reproduction of the ceramic drivers from the Kharma which I think the MM3 also use .. The Wilson X-2 use a different midrange driver and truly they have a rather spectacular midrange... Spectacular in the sense of true liquid and realistic.
In term of longevity... The ESL 63 last a very long time, virtually indestructible since it will not absolutely play louder than it is able to thanks to its sometimes pesky protection circuit and so do the original Quads (if you never tried to play them at concert levels). Anyone with Stax ESL headphones can attest to their utmost longevity and a friend of mine still have his Stax ESL speakers working.

I sincerely believe that today dynamic drivers are the full equal of what ESL did in the midrange ... Ribbons still reign supreme in the Highs and I do find myself partial to dipolar bass reproduction.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Mike
I showed my friend's system in member's gallery, SET 838 (45 watt) with 866 mercury to drive Quad ESL 63 and SET 805 (50 watt) also with 866 to drive 15" Altec for sub 80hz and under, SET 826 (8 watt) to drive JBL 2405 for over 15 K, this set up very good for classical music reproduction especially strings include cello and double bass too
tony ma

Tony,

i have a friend who has Quads and an 845 based set of monoblocks which sound heavenly on string quartets and piano, wonderful. involving. i could listen to those all day and night. i 'get' what people love about that combo.

OTOH where it falls short compared to my Evolution's is in growl, overtones and weight on the Cello and Piano. the ability of my speakers to move air 'completes' the picture nearer to reality for how those instruments sound 'live'. if you never heard those bottom 2 octaves added to what the Quads do you would never know anything was missing. and those things affect that mid-range richness.

i can't wait to get the 2A3 monoblocks to be able to enjoy with the Evolutions.

Mike

 

[KeithR]

Mike- who is building your amps?

I may be going SET monoblocks soon as well. 845-based, however.

 

[mep]

Frantz-Both panels went dead on my pair of Aerius stats and I replaced them. I see ESL-63 speakers for sale with dead panels so I would say the problem with stat panels going bad over time isn't limited to ML. I hope others will chime in here if they know about stat panels going bad over time. I know it's common with ML stats so I don't know why it would be just limited to them.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Mike- who is building your amps?

I may be going SET monoblocks soon as well. 845-based, however.

Keith,

a friend of mine, Scott Sheaffer, has started a company, 'Found Music'.

http://www.found-music.com/

some info about the 45/2a3 monoblocks is here;

i'm no tube amp circuit expert, but the Mercury Vapor tube rectification is a significant sonic plus to this design.

http://www.found-music.com/45.html

Btw; Scott is the very best turntable set-up guy i have ever met. he made a huge difference in the performance of the turntables in my room.

 

[tony ky ma]

Tony,

i have a friend who has Quads and an 845 based set of monoblocks which sound heavenly on string quartets and piano, wonderful. involving. i could listen to those all day and night. i 'get' what people love about that combo.

OTOH where it falls short compared to my Evolution's is in growl, overtones and weight on the Cello and Piano. the ability of my speakers to move air 'completes' the picture nearer to reality for how those instruments sound 'live'. if you never heard those bottom 2 octaves added to what the Quads do you would never know anything was missing. and those things affect that mid-range richness.

i can't wait to get the 2A3 monoblocks to be able to enjoy with the Evolutions.

Mike

Mike
That is why a sub need to add on, the result is in a big different, the only thing is how to place to match, if room is big enough move inch by inch and judge by ear always the best way
tony ma

 

[caesar]

Good discussion. Personally, I have not found anything better than a stat. But I haven't heard everything either.


A full range stat like the Soundlab, with a powerful enough amp is hard to beat. I am not questioning others' thoughts and opinions, but speaker-amp synergy is really important. The more powerful the amp, the more realistic the highs and bass. In the last CES, Soundlab displayed with Atma-sphere Ma1, which is a gorgeous sounding amp, but a mistake because MA1 is just not powerful (in my humble opinion) to make the speaker sound "alive." (Why couldn't they display with MA2's to really show off the system?) So I do wonder how many folks would change their opinion if they heard a full range stat properly driven.

I was just listening to Oscar Peterson, The Trio - Live from Chicago. It's like a front row ticket. Not only is the midrange magical, but the drums sound pretty dynamic also. Of course, the recording is superb (1961), and my amp is a monster tube amp. So I wonder if the comments to "a lack of body" have to do with good bass accompanying a great midrange, and hint at speaker/ amp synergy...

Also, it is interesting that folks have mentioned the $100K Rockports and Wilson having great midrange drivers. Expensive, but at least something out there, and with time can trickle down to lower priced speakers...

 

[tony ky ma]

Frantz-Both panels went dead on my pair of Aerius stats and I replaced them. I see ESL-63 speakers for sale with dead panels so I would say the problem with stat panels going bad over time isn't limited to ML. I hope others will chime in here if they know about stat panels going bad over time. I know it's common with ML stats so I don't know why it would be just limited to them.

Mark
Static panel is weak in high humidity, I got my Jecklin Float static headphone more than 30 years, still working good and friends' Quad also longer more than 10 years, there are two points you have to check.
1) the bias voltage supply is over too high, that will increase noise and shorten it's live time
2) the contact point of HV bias to the panel is clean or not, always with bad contact without bias voltage make it no sound, is not because of dead panel only short inside is a dead panel
tony ma

 

[caesar]

As a Quad ESL63 - Soundlab owner I must agree with you that electrostatics are some of finest speakers for the best midrange driver contest I have heard, but the realism of these transducers depends a lot on the synergy with the matching electronics, something I would not expect with the best midrange drivers!

BTW, I agree with Lloydelee21 - after I have heard a pair of Alexandria series 2 driven by Audio Research top amplification, I started questioning if my ESL63 was really the best midrange on Earth.
As I never listened to the ESL63 with the Ref610T I still have the doubt ...

Microstrip,

I have heard the Quad 57's on several occasions, but I am not as familiar with Quad 63's. I have also heard a lot of folks say that the Soundlab is just a "giant Quad." I am not sure I agree, as I find the bass of the Soundlab better. Nevertheless, how does the midrange of the '63 compare to the Soundlab? Thanks

 

[kach22i]

Frantz-Both panels went dead on my pair of Aerius stats and I replaced them.

I bought my original Aerius speaker when they first came out back in 1992. A few years later the panels sort of quit and puttered so I purchased new ones. The replacements are still working fine, so I think some little detail at the factory got improved the second time around. Dust and dirt are the killers and one day they will be given a shower.

Bang for the buck stats have the best midrange, however as pointed out horns have better dynamics and there is a loudness ceiling at the extremes.

 

[caesar]

as pointed out horns have better dynamics and there is a loudness ceiling at the extremes.

Great point! Stats are cool for an occasional rock-out, but I would not recommend them to a hard rocker.