Hi yes, they were awesome, but he too runs with $3/m cables, hence mentioned it above.
Does Upgrading Cables Actually SAVE You Money?
- Thread starter witchdoctor
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Hi yes, they were awesome, but he too runs with $3/m cables, hence mentioned it above.
One issue with using cables that are other than neutral is you will then choose components to compensate for the cable's shortcomings, or balance the sound out. IMO, passive components should never be used as tone controls due to the fact they will degrade aspects of your system's performance moreso than neutral cables. You're better off spending some cash for decent, neutral cables from the start and having the ability to more honestly examine the performance of your components. The same is true for power, if you have issues with dirty power you will then choose warmer cables and components to compensate for the power issues. Power and cables are the backbone of the system and these things should be done right BEFORE you spend big $ on components. The result will be a much clearer, detailed and engaging system.
Another issue with cables are the fact interconnects are a very sensitive cable and there are very, very few ic cables that are actually neutral. Even the best copper adds warmth and smooths out detail. Most silver contributes to harshness and glare. Finding a truly neutral, clear and detailed ic cable is very rare, but without it you won't experience the full potential of your system.
So in short, leave it to amplification devices matched carefully with your speakers to attain the timbre and balance you want and choose cables based on their clarity, detail and accuracy.
And price does not necessarily equate to performance, keep in mind audio is also a luxury market...
Another issue with cables are the fact interconnects are a very sensitive cable and there are very, very few ic cables that are actually neutral. Even the best copper adds warmth and smooths out detail. Most silver contributes to harshness and glare. Finding a truly neutral, clear and detailed ic cable is very rare, but without it you won't experience the full potential of your system.
So in short, leave it to amplification devices matched carefully with your speakers to attain the timbre and balance you want and choose cables based on their clarity, detail and accuracy.
And price does not necessarily equate to performance, keep in mind audio is also a luxury market...
Dave, I agree (This is what I did along my audio journey) but how does one know if the cables are neutral or if the gear associated with said cables is neutral?
Tom
Amen to THAT!
Tom
That's a great point about the resale value holding up. I see the value of processors for HT drop like a rock every time a new codec comes out. In early 2015 the Marantz 7702 was around $2000. Now it's around $900. If I bought a $2000 cable I could probably sell it for at least $1500 and that is used. Those marantz processors are selling at that price brand new because they were replaced with the 7702 mkII,
"Neutral" is determined by comparison and experience, it can only be relative as you can't just take away a part of a system and have it still work, we can't listen to an electrical signal without a system to convert the signal to sound.
Over time you can recognize characteristics of certain things, like the warmth of copper wire, and when you hear these things you know that it is colored by it. I also listen for detail, the better the resolution the closer to neutral you are as everything that takes away from being neutral also reduces resolution. You also learn to recognize sources of fatigue and avoid them, as harshness and glare is not neutral. By doing lots of testing and listening eventually it's pretty easy to recognize things that color the sound, whether it's warmth, harshness, accentuated leading edges, etc. The absence of colorations and the presence of fine detail end up determining whether something is neutral or colored in some way. To add to that, there is also timbral neutrality, and this is determined by comparisons to live sound. This is whether voices and acoustic instruments have realistic timbre, whether the tone of the presentation is realistic. Timbral resolution is the reason I use a silver/gold alloy in my top end cables instead of pure silver. I get correct timbre without affecting resolution and the effect is more neutral vs pure silver, which can sound harmonically lean.
So, you listen for the absence of coloration, the presence of fine detail and how realistic voices and acoustic instruments sound relative to other components.
When you get it right there is the feeling that the cables are doing nothing. I'm not the best writer, but Andre Marc pretty much nailed it in his review... I can't describe it any better:
http://www.avrev.com/home-theater-a...cables-and-surgex-zenwave-edition-review.html
And this is also why it's a bad idea to use cables as tone controls, to do so you are looking for a certain type of coloration to balance the sound out. In doing so you are trading away resolution you can never get back.
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This is key, you decided after an audition which I applaud. You made a decision after trying enough brands to say this is not what I need. That is my basic value proposition, to at least audition risk free before upgrading spending $$$ on a new component.
BTW, I have been using the Virtual Dynamics Nite power cords for years and really like them. I was using the Virtual Dynamics $1000 Master Reference Digital Cable until it was trounced in a shootout with my current one from Mapleshade which I believe cost less than $200, go figure.
BTW Bonzo, if you take DaveC up on his very kind offer below I recommend trying a digital cable first unless he recommends otherwise. It is only one cable and everything downstream can be impacted by it. I know the logic is digital is all ones and zeroes and a cable can;t change that. One thing it can help with in my experience is a reduction in jitter, YMMV.
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You have to understand the goal of the designer may not match your own goals. Often cables are "voiced" to sound a certain way and imo this can never be good as it will always lead to tradeoffs.
If you want to try a cable that isn't "voiced" at all, designed to sound as much like nothing as possible, I'd be happy to send you one of mine and you can compare and see how much resolution you're missing out on.
Power and cables are the backbone of the system and these things should be done right BEFORE you spend big $ on components. The result will be a much clearer, detailed and engaging system.
I couldn't have said it better myself. I'll bet the end result would be less $$$ for more SQ.
I couldn't have said it better myself.
I'll bet the end result would be less $$$ for more SQ.
IMHO it is due to the whole system, not the speakers per se. But I am hypothesizing, after my very limited experiences with similar cables.
Again in IMveryHO, digital sound reproduction is much more critical of cables (power and signal) than vinyl or tape.
Re-reading your post. So you are mainly questioning the price of cables, not their purpose and specificity?
Lou from Daedalus audio likes to claim his DiD's are better than an expensive power cord. He might be right on that. I can't speak for direct comparisons, but I did experience a DiD demo and they seriously work. Now are they right for everything? I don't know yet. Maybe I'll have to get some to experiment with.
However despite my plug for a product I experienced... I have to say you can't cheap out on interconnects. They are an enormous bottleneck if you have low quality ones. And in my experience DaveC's are utterly unsurpassed by the dollar figure to performance. His prices are too low, and that's not some drawn out form of hyperbole, he should seriously charge more. The construction is legitimately in accordance with all the known rules, and less all the snake oil.
I'm less picky on speaker cables, but will say I've never been satisfied with anything as small as 2x14ga. Powercords come second to power conditioning in my book, but can make a nice difference.
To the original question, without a doubt make sure your IC's are bottlenecks or you'll never know what your stereo really even is...
However despite my plug for a product I experienced... I have to say you can't cheap out on interconnects. They are an enormous bottleneck if you have low quality ones. And in my experience DaveC's are utterly unsurpassed by the dollar figure to performance. His prices are too low, and that's not some drawn out form of hyperbole, he should seriously charge more. The construction is legitimately in accordance with all the known rules, and less all the snake oil.
I'm less picky on speaker cables, but will say I've never been satisfied with anything as small as 2x14ga. Powercords come second to power conditioning in my book, but can make a nice difference.
To the original question, without a doubt make sure your IC's are bottlenecks or you'll never know what your stereo really even is...
I agree. The Lampi sound changes a lot with the USB or power cable than other components in my system.
Stock in terms of price and quality. I don't know how many of us have the skills to go out in the market and say I want a cable that has following capacitance and other characteristics, or to trust a character description of the sound of a cable without trying it. The only way I know to try a cable is to buy used or borrow from a hifi buddy and listen, in which case it will be a branded cable with a price. The only specifics I have for my cables are they need to be neutral. But I don't want to try to check which one is a better neutral, so I will stick to what I have now and won't change. There are enough things to OCD over, cables gives me the least jump in magnitude
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I haven't upgraded my excellent analog signal cables, Monster Sigma 2000, in 23 years. Once I heard Spectral/MIT cables in my system, but while they made a bit of a difference, the next upgrade to BorderPatrol MB external power supplies for my amps made an at least 20 x greater difference -- for much less money.
I have heard excellent systems with Kubala and Transparent cables.
They would then have sounded excellent without them as well. Marty's system once had Kubala cables.
My premise is the biggest bang for the buck upgrade is often cables. If you feel the biggest bang for the room upgrade is room treatment great, can you be more specific? What products, how did you use them, etc. If you could post photos that would be helpful too.
I have treated my room with products from a company called 8th Nerve and each product definitely improved SQ. I just found they were more expensive and involved a lot more effort than changing a cable. Hence it did make an improvement but wasn't the biggest bang for the buck in my system. For example I have tried power cords that cost less than $100 plugged into my subwoofer that made a really nice improvement in SQ compared to the cord that came with the sub. I have no idea what room treatment could make such an impact for less than $100.
http://www.audioreview.com/cat/cabl...-cable/magic-power-ac/prd_321046_1584crx.aspx
Did some of you have read any of this:
• http://www.realhd-audio.com/?p=5656
• http://www.realhd-audio.com/?p=5659
* AJ shared it with us over @ www.audiosciencereview.com ... very nice read.
• http://www.realhd-audio.com/?p=5656
• http://www.realhd-audio.com/?p=5659
* AJ shared it with us over @ www.audiosciencereview.com ... very nice read.
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