Idlers vs Direct Drive vs Belt Drive

Has someone performed this: Listening to various TTs with the same arm/cartridge/phono stage/amp/headphones combination and heard the differences?
I have done it for the last 5 years, sometimes on a daily basis.
My Raven AC-2
P1030180.JPG
is situated at one end of the same shelf as my Victor TT-101
P1080151.JPG
No visiting audiophiles can tell (blind) which turntable is playing and neither can I really except on demanding material like full orchestral credenzas, solo piano, violin and guitar.
There are easily greater differences between cartridges than there are between these two fine decks...but I do find I am more likely to gasp with amazement at a particular disc on the Victor :b
I have not heard an SP10Mk3 but I do know that its philosophy and methodology of DD implementation is radically different to that of the TT-101.
The Technics utilises a heavy platter and high-power/torque motor with a hefty servo-control (I believe) whereas the Victor utilises a light-weight platter with lower-power motor and its own patented 'light-fingered' servo-control working in (patented) bi-directional mode.
I suspect the sound of these two decks might be more different than similar....?
 
Has someone performed this: Listening to various TTs with the same arm/cartridge/phono stage/amp/headphones combination and heard the differences?

David and Halcro both wrote that they have done this. I almost did too until I saw the "headphones" in the chain. Have David and Halcro really compared their turntables using headphones? I suspect Frantz's point is to take the airborne vibrations caused by the speakers out of the picture.
 
It is not clear from the specification how the speed is kept. IMHO the sentence


The motor then shifts the function to assist the constant rotation of the platter revolving due to inertia to be maintained and not to be stopped.



is not understandable.

The motors of direct drive turntables are intrinsically synchronous motors - what some people question are the effects of the technique used to control the speed of the platter.

It could be the japan to English translation. In any event, I'm not too worried. I love the sound that comes off my TT and am very content.
 
David and Halcro both wrote that they have done this. I almost did too until I saw the "headphones" in the chain. Have David and Halcro really compared their turntables using headphones? I suspect Frantz's point is to take the airborne vibrations caused by the speakers out of the picture.
I actually have done the comparisons with headphones......but even the best are such a poor substitute for good speakers that I resist firing up the Schiit Lyr unless there are unavoidable dire circumstances..:mad:
 
quote_icon.png
Originally Posted by Mosin
...
We are left with several questions, the most pressing is whether we want excellent measured speed accuracy or excellent speed consistency. ...






Every segment of every rotation has to be at the correct speed, there is no point completing exactly 33.3 rotations in a minute I'd every single rotation is different or if every segment within each individual rotation is different.
It really is a very simple concept.
Keith.

It is a simple concept, Keith. You are right about that. The rub is in the execution of that concept.

Every turntable that has ever been made suffers from some speed inconsistency, however. That's why we have controllers, but you already know that. Unfortunately, the design of the controller itself is rarely explained by manufacturers, and there are a myriad of ways to build one. Some are merely simple speed controls that address nothing much, except to the make the bottom line measurement look like it is spot-on accurate. That was the first scenario I gave in my earlier post. Others specifically address both the characteristics of the motor/drive and the platter/bearing while taking into account the interaction between the them. This is where I believe most fall down because there seems to be no rhyme or reason that would correlate the two in any meaningful way. The best motor and controller on Earth cannot fix the shortcomings of a poorly designed platter, and the same goes for all the other components. Like your entire system, an overall turntable design is only as strong as its weakest link. The controller is only one of those links, but you already know that, too. What's best? That's difficult to say because controllers aren't a one size fits all deal. I believe the majority are lackluster efforts, though. I will go that far.
 
David and Halcro both wrote that they have done this. I almost did too until I saw the "headphones" in the chain. Have David and Halcro really compared their turntables using headphones? I suspect Frantz's point is to take the airborne vibrations caused by the speakers out of the picture.

Thanks PeterA.

I have become a skeptic but not a flat-earther :)... I have gone through some good TTs in my audiophile life. It seems to me that the differences between the best TT is smaller than what we tend to make of them. Arms? Cartridges? Phono Stages? Vast differences.
You take some very good TT like say the SME 30, my SP10 MK3 or the Grand Prix Monaco with the same arm and cartridge , feeding the same Phono stage through the exact same system and you really think they will sound vastly different? I honestly suspect that when we look at the TTs already we start setting our minds to a certain "sound". A thought experiment: Waaay before we drop the needle on the LP, I am willing to bet that most audiophiles would expect that a spartan-looking Technics SP 10 in a metallic plinth to sound different (worse) than a gorgeous-looking TT such as the La Luce. Now throw in the likely price differences and you can safely bet which way many of us would be leaning
We have become very entrenched in our views of things audiophiles. It is not often our ears that are the judge but what we set in our mind to be the best... Subjectivity? Absolutely? but not in the sense of a sincere and honest description of perception, rather, what our minds imprints on our description or worth of a perception.
I am mostly a digital listening person so let me leave that discussion.... for now :D
 
I have never heard cogging from my Exclusive DD tables. To say that it affects all DD table is incorrect unless you think you have golden ears.

I have heard it from my El cheapo PLX-1000 thou.
 
  • Like
Reactions: assessor43
I have done it for the last 5 years, sometimes on a daily basis.
My Raven AC-2
View attachment 23148
is situated at one end of the same shelf as my Victor TT-101
View attachment 23150
No visiting audiophiles can tell (blind) which turntable is playing and neither can I really except on demanding material like full orchestral credenzas, solo piano, violin and guitar.
There are easily greater differences between cartridges than there are between these two fine decks...but I do find I am more likely to gasp with amazement at a particular disc on the Victor :b
I have not heard an SP10Mk3 but I do know that its philosophy and methodology of DD implementation is radically different to that of the TT-101.
The Technics utilises a heavy platter and high-power/torque motor with a hefty servo-control (I believe) whereas the Victor utilises a light-weight platter with lower-power motor and its own patented 'light-fingered' servo-control working in (patented) bi-directional mode.
I suspect the sound of these two decks might be more different than similar....?



Really Henry?

I can certainly tell the difference between my TW AC3 and my DD tables. Quite different in delivery of any music with bass dynamics.
 
Really Henry?

I can certainly tell the difference between my TW AC3 and my DD tables. Quite different in delivery of any music with bass dynamics.
You might not have your AC3 optimised Shane...?
 
You might not have your AC3 optimised Shane...?


Doubt it , but only one arm these days. but the bass is different on each table for sure. You think your AC3 and DD bass delivery sounds the same?
 
I have done it for the last 5 years, sometimes on a daily basis.
My Raven AC-2
(...)
is situated at one end of the same shelf as my Victor TT-101
(...)
The Technics utilises a heavy platter and high-power/torque motor with a hefty servo-control (I believe) whereas the Victor utilises a light-weight platter with lower-power motor and its own patented 'light-fingered' servo-control working in (patented) bi-directional mode.
I suspect the sound of these two decks might be more different than similar....?

Very nice looking turntables. What type of technology uses the Raven AC2 motor/controller?

BTW, I think people appreciating the great japanese DD turntables will enjoy this site showing their internals and parts with great detail: http://www.amp8.com/amp-etc/record/record.htm
 
Doubt it , but only one arm these days. but the bass is different on each table for sure. You think your AC3 and DD bass delivery sounds the same?
The first step with the Raven is to obtain the most accurate and consistent speed possible.
Bass reproduction is the first casualty of poor speed control.
If your Raven's speed is optimised....it will produce a Frequency Chart with the Feikert Speed App more or less identical to the one I posted for my Raven.
If you upload your Chart here to demonstrate this, we can proceed to the next step:cool:
A tip: I found it impossible to obtain the correct stable speed with three motors....:eek:
 
Used to own a Raven AC3 . I don't think it's microprocessor controlled . Also it's speed drift. Tested it with Sutherland Timeline strobe . For the money it's a good TT
 
It is not clear from the specification how the speed is kept. IMHO the sentence


The motor then shifts the function to assist the constant rotation of the platter revolving due to inertia to be maintained and not to be stopped.



is not understandable.

The motors of direct drive turntables are intrinsically synchronous motors - what some people question are the effects of the technique used to control the speed of the platter.

This may help..No servo is used to control speed. The link provides full size.
http://www.techdas.jp/AirForce technicalnote_ENG.pdf
 

Attachments

  • TDTechbulletin.jpg
    TDTechbulletin.jpg
    102.5 KB · Views: 260
From the TechDas site..........










Through a calibrated microcomputer adjustment circuit combined with a heavyweight platter, the turntable achieves a very high rotation accuracy beyond the boundaries of conventional belt-driven products and equivalent to that of a direct drive (DD) motor.

?The fabric belt-drive method is implemented in this system. There have been a thread-drive, rubber belt drive, fabric belt-drive and various ways among historical belt-drive methods. In this system as the constant rotation speed by a heavyweight platter should be attained within a short time and should be secured, a non-stretch fiber belt is employed. The material is 4 mm wide polyurethane flat fiber belt with polished surface capable of high smoothness, which is excellent in durability and silence characteristics.
?The drive motor is stored in a separate robust aluminum housing installed in a position isolated from the main body chassis.The motor is an AC synchronous motor with a weight of 6.6kg driven by an automatic number-of-revolutions adjustment circuit and a two phase DC amplifier circuit.

?This automatic number-of-revolutions adjustment circuit can detect every rotational error per revolution through the non-contact sensor installed in the base and correct each error through the automatic adjustment circuit by a microprocessor. When reaching certain constant speed, the circuits are locked which maintains the speed. Simultaneously the voltage of the drive motor is halved and the vibrations from the motor is significantly decreased.
The motor then shifts the function to assist the constant rotation of the platter revolving due to inertia to be maintained and not to be stopped. Accordingly incomparable quietness and the very high rotation accuracy equivalent to that of a direct drive motor are
secured.
 
It does have two 150w amplifiers though!
I wouldn't place too much faith in this translation, ask the manufacturer exactly how they control the speed of their 'amplifiers'!
Keith.

Here's an excerpt from the Saskia sheet that describes how we do it. To expound on that, the speed is maintained by a time based method, rather than a frequency based one. It gently "nudges" the speed back to the target whenever the sensor detects inaccuracy, rather than making a single abrupt correction, but when it senses a major change like the user's hand stopping the platter, it lets the motor bring the speed back without any help from feedback. Corrections are infrequent because the speed can stay on target for long periods of time without any correction at all, so it is usually just monitoring the operation. If correction is needed, the controller nudges the platter back into position with several spaced out nudges that are very small. Any changes that it does make are not ones you can see with a Sutherland Timeline. In fact, the dot made by a Timeline won't ever move a noticeable amount. It is a "less is more" approach. There's even the option for the user to never use the feedback feature at all.

Saskia model two turntable

Motor Management Features:
3-phase AC power generation
The controller's main purpose is to convert commonly available single-phase power to Saskia’s 3-phase hysteresis eddy current motor. Traditionally, 3-phase AC motors have been adapted for use in single-phase turntables by using an arrangement referred to as a “faking capacitor”. However, these motors always run quieter and more smoothly when used with a proper 3-phase power source. Saskia is designed from the start to take full advantage of its benefits.
60MHz 32-bit Microprocessor
The controller's signal generation and user interface is managed by a 32-bit processor and custom DSP software. To our knowledge, this is the most powerful processor being used in a turntable product.
All frequencies are accurate to within 0.001%
All signals generated by the controller are derived from a precision 10 ppm quartz oscillator.
Power synthesis using high-precision DACs
The AC waveforms are generated using the highest quality precision 16-bit Digital-to-Analog converters from Analog Devices, Inc.
Designed for long-term reliability
Heavy-duty linear power supplies with premium components, twelve high-current MOSFET devices and a large heat sink are employed for maximum fault-tolerance and reliability. No switch-mode devices are used.
Continuously variable control of AC frequency and amplitude
Instead of being a fixed power source, the controller and its software are capable of delivering power that is custom tailored to the task of powering Saskia. Power delivered to the motor is gradually increased as the platter comes up to speed, allowing a smooth, on-the-fly transition between playback speeds. This eliminates slippage and chatter, and greatly reduces drive component wear.
Optical feedback system
Environmental factors, self-heating (warm up), and age can all have an effect on a turntable's rotational accuracy. The Saskia model two features a non-contact rotation sensor under its platter and an optional feedback system to keep the platter locked precisely at the desired speed. The system’s adaptive algorithm is designed with a long time constant to avoid the overshoot and 'hunting' problems often associated with less well designed active speed controls.
High contrast OLED display
The control interface uses a white OLED (Organic Light Emitting Diode) display. This display can be clearly seen at any angle, unlike a traditional LCD display.
Touch sensitive control input buttons on front panel
Operation of the controller interface is performed using four touch sensitive stainless steel buttons located around the OLED display which shows the current function of each button.
Removable power cord and rocker power switch on back panel
A high-quality Tel Wire power cord is included with Saskia, but any standard 3-conductor cord may be used. Power can be switched off (disconnecting both HOT and NEUTRAL) where it enters the controller, if the turntable will not be used for an extended period of time.
Intelligent operational and safety monitoring
The controller software constantly monitors many data points including incoming AC power quality, internal temperature, and motor current. A detected fault will safely shut down the turntable . An internal fuse is also provided.
User-upgradeable Firmware
The controller features a USB port to allow the firmware to be easily upgraded at any time using a standard thumb drive. Saskia Turntables will notify its customers whenever an upgrade is available.
Rugged and highly serviceable design
The Saskia model two controller is hand built from carefully selected, high quality components. Robust fault detection, modular design, and the use of high quality connectors throughout make it easier to service than most other modern electronic devices, should the need ever arise.
 
All belt drive designs suffer from speed fluctuation that is the nature of belt drive, the belt stretches and contracts .
Keith

My AFO is belt driven . It's speed is spot on with Sutherland Strobe. So I suspect is Kronos Pro
 
Sure it's speed adjustable otherwise how else to set the right speed after AFO is moved ?
 
There is no need to set the speed with the Monaco , just turn it on, speed is corrected ( if necessary) 4000 times a second.
Keith.

I would say that all of our turntables are the same Keith. I have never once had to use the pitch knobs on the AF1
 
There is no need to set the speed with the Monaco , just turn it on, speed is corrected ( if necessary) 4000 times a second.
Keith.

GP Monaco is the best TT. Just that not many people is buying it after Michael Fremer review & I trust MF taste :D:D
 

About us

  • What’s Best Forum is THE forum for high end audio, product reviews, advice and sharing experiences on the best of everything else. This is THE place where audiophiles and audio companies discuss vintage, contemporary and new audio products, music servers, music streamers, computer audio, digital-to-analog converters, turntables, phono stages, cartridges, reel-to-reel tape machines, speakers, headphones and tube and solid-state amplification. Founded in 2010 What’s Best Forum invites intelligent and courteous people of all interests and backgrounds to describe and discuss the best of everything. From beginners to life-long hobbyists to industry professionals, we enjoy learning about new things and meeting new people, and participating in spirited debates.

Quick Navigation

User Menu

Steve Williams
Site Founder | Site Owner | Administrator
Ron Resnick
Site Co-Owner | Administrator
Julian (The Fixer)
Website Build | Marketing Managersing