Idlers vs Direct Drive vs Belt Drive

[microstrip]

Instead of mouthing meaningless platitudes, it would be more helpful if you provided technical or scientific evidence of the terms you say are "not shown in the wow and flutter measurements"

It is all explained in the white paper of the GrandPrix we were debating.

 

[microstrip]

Yes you told but you provided no supporting evidence for this information.
It is up to you to prove there is "perceptible motor clogging effects in the turntable".
So far we see no measured evidence of it and with due respect......your lack of credible technical explanation for your subjective views do not inspire confidence.

No, it is to you to prove that a picture of a mysterious measurement shows evidence there is no perceptible motor clogging effects in the turntable.
We are mainly debating subjective assessments of turntables.

 

[microstrip]

(...) We are left with several questions, the most pressing is whether we want excellent measured speed accuracy or excellent speed consistency. (...)

Great summary. And we still have a question - what are the proper weighting functions to quantify such effects?

 

[FrantzM]

Originally Posted by Mosin
...
We are left with several questions, the most pressing is whether we want excellent measured speed accuracy or excellent speed consistency. ...






Every segment of every rotation has to be at the correct speed, there is no point completing exactly 33.3 rotations in a minute I'd every single rotation is different or if every segment within each individual rotation is different.
It really is a very simple concept.
Keith.

And I don't see how accuracy and consistency are disconnected ... I wonder if we are not pushing too much in the sense of subjectivity... Truly people. In this very thread it was suggested that perhaps we audiophile have special hearing abilities .. DO we want to truly believe we can hear better than instruments ... Anyhow I will simply continue to enjoy the SP10 and my definitely plebeian hearing abilities, hear no cogging whatsoever...

@microstrip

The SP 10 is on a very plinth made of a mixture of copper and aluminum, sandwiched with I believe Sorbothane or some equivalent thing, fabricated for me by a Mechanical Engineer relative..

@everyone.

it is my opinion that the differences , if any, that we hear between the better TTs are due not to how they revolve but rather in how they isolate ambient noise mostly the sound coming form the speakers. Furthermore as I had suggested in another thread I believe that comparison between TTs should be carried at the same position since different positions are due to have different standing waves distribution. I have been listening to music through headphones for the past 5 years, (this is about to change though) and I would like to know if TTs with the same arm and cartridge do not sound very close to "the same" when listening though headphones?

Let us try to admit or coerce something similar to an admission: Don't you think that once you know it is idler, DD or Belt-Drive that we unconsciously assign a "sound" to each category based on prior experience/exposure?

 

[Halcro]

No, it is to you to prove that a picture of a mysterious measurement shows evidence there is no perceptible motor clogging effects in the turntable.
We are mainly debating subjective assessments of turntables.

Yes...sorry to introduce actual measurements to spoil your fantasies...

 

[Halcro]

It is all explained in the white paper of the GrandPrix we were debating.

Oh...you mean a manufacturer's sales blurb?
Wait...I think I have one here from Hitachi.....

 

[microstrip]

And I don't see how accuracy and consistency are disconnected ... I wonder if we are not pushing too much in the sense of subjectivity... Truly people. In this very thread it was suggested that perhaps we audiophile have special hearing abilities .. DO we want to truly believe we can hear better than instruments ... Had it been that way would we even have turntable to begin with? Anyhow I will simply continue to enjoy the SP10 and my definitely plebeian hearing abilities hear no cogging ...

@microstrip

The SP 10 is on a very plinth made of a mixture of copper and aluminum, sandwiched with I believe SOrbothane , fabricated for me by a Mechanical Engineer relative..

it is my opinion that the differences , if any, that we hear between the better TTs are due not to how they revolve but rather in how they isolate ambient noise mostly the sound coming form the speakers. Furthermore as I had suggested in another thread I believe that comparison between TTs should be carried at the same position since different positions are due to have different standing waves distribution. I have been listening to music through headphones for the past 5 years, (this is about to change though) and I would like to know if TTs with the same arm and cartridge do not sound very close to "the same" when listening though headphones?

Let us try to admit or coerce something similar to an admission: Don't you think that once you know it is idler, DD or Belt-Drive that we unconsciously assign a "sound" to each category based on prior experience/exposure?

Your SP10 mk3 is not a typical DD - it is one of the best and I easily admit it will not show the nasty effects of cheap designs.

IMHO most of turntable sound is also due to how the platter/turntable deals with the vibration induced by the stylus in the LP. The bearing is a key part in the sound of the turntable and each type of motor will ask for a different bearing, mainly due to need of having a resistive damping. Also, a DD turntable couples the platter to the chassis in a very different way from a belt drive. - if a motor stator exercises a force on the platter, the platter exercises an equal opposing force on the stator. Modern electronics can probably deal with the "kick and coast" problems, creating an uniform torque with almost no cogging, but some basic aspects are still very different.

Disclaimer - I have no experience with quality DD's. Just bias induced by the old Technics 1500 series1

 

[microstrip]

Oh...you mean a manufacturer's sales blurb?
Wait...I think I have one here from Hitachi.....

Many times manufacturers white papers are excellent in diagnosing existing problems. Surely their own approach to deal with those issues becomes mixed with a marketing strategy and should be taken with many grains (or bags...) of salt. But we still can learn a lot from them.

 

[FrantzM]

Your SP10 mk3 is not a typical DD - it is one of the best and I easily admit it will not show the nasty effects of cheap designs.

IMHO most of turntable sound is also due to how the platter/turntable deals with the vibration induced by the stylus in the LP. The bearing is a key part in the sound of the turntable and each type of motor will ask for a different bearing, mainly due to need of having a resistive damping. Also, a DD turntable couples the platter to the chassis in a very different way from a belt drive. - if a motor stator exercises a force on the platter, the platter exercises an equal opposing force on the stator. Modern electronics can probably deal with the "kick and coast" problems, creating an uniform torque with almost no cogging, but some basic aspects are still very different.

Disclaimer - I have no experience with quality DD's. Just bias induced by the old Technics 1500 series1

Not to nitpick on your reply.. Well to nitpick

Has someone performed this: Listening to various TTs with the same arm/cartridge/phono stage/amp/headphones combination and heard the differences?

I am not all convinced that the bearing have such a "sound". We tend to assign "sounds' to everything ... after all seem to translate our other senses into audible perception : Gold equipment= warm sound ... metal cones: hard sound .. Ceramic dome or cones = hard sound too .. soft dome= soft sweet treble, silk domes= even softer, smoother maybe more extended .. paper cones = natural ... etc you see where I am going

Back to TT. To me it is matter of execution. I wouldn't go as far as saying they sound the same but ... in my hierarchy of TT I would put DD very high followed by Belt Drive and finally idler... I haven't heard the best and greatest idler drives but would like to be shown that they are more stable in their speed accuracy and that their noise characteristics can match properly executed DD or Belt drive models.

 

[audio-land]

Aren't those the Super Liszts? When you mention Avantgarde, are you referring to Trios with basshorns, and did you compare full symphony orchestra on the two? The reason I ask is the Carmen's woofer seems similar to the Liszt woofer, i.e. not a horn based woofer, but more like an active box.v Is this a 2-way?

Liszt and Carmen are four way. Fully active bass horn inside the upper cabinet. Two unseen woofers inside which makes five drivers per channel.

I use Cessaro Carmen for my personal room.

 

[ddk]

Not to nitpick on your reply.. Well to nitpick

Has someone performed this: Listening to various TTs with the same arm/cartridge/phono stage/amp/headphones combination and heard the differences?

I have! Arms and cartridges are listed in the OP and I had these tables on the same racks, in the same system for years. I want to emphasize again that the 3 tables used for comparison are all established Reference products, we can't have a conversation using crap. The side effects of SP-10's Servo, cogging or whatever you want to call it are known and over the years people have come up with mods to improve on it, this is a fact. It's also a fact that SP-10 is a Reference level table and one of the best made. Its also a fact that each type has its own distinct qualities which I have found consistent even with upper level Reference products. Not everyone has done these comparisons and I was looking for others to share their experience with different types. The choice is up to the individual, what's of interest to me is understanding people's aesthetics even if its only measurement based, not looking for universal right or wrong, good and bad.

david

 

[rockitman]

Actually I'm high up on AC Synchronous motors and I see them as a necessity for true a high end design. I'm simply unaware of anyone making quality ones so we might be stuck with DC motors as a "compromise" for the time being. Its the dc motor and its controller that I find as one of the two factors compromising the the AF-1, I discussed this with the designer and he didn't disagree.

david

David....the AF1 motor is AC...I will quote:

The motor is an AC synchronous motor with a weight of 6.6kg driven by an automatic number-of-revolutions adjustment circuit and a two phase DC amplifier circuit.

This automatic number-of-revolutions adjustment circuit can detect every rotational error per revolution through the non-contact sensor installed in the base and correct each error through the automatic adjustment circuit by a microprocessor. When reaching certain constant speed, the circuits are locked which maintains the speed. Simultaneously the voltage of the drive motor is halved and the vibrations from the motor is significantly decreased.
The motor then shifts the function to assist the constant rotation of the platter revolving due to inertia to be maintained and not to be stopped. Accordingly incomparable quietness and the very high rotation accuracy equivalent to that of a direct drive motor are
secured.

http://techdas.jp/analog_01.html

 

[microstrip]

David....the AF1 motor is AC...I will quote:

http://techdas.jp/analog_01.html

It is not clear from the specification how the speed is kept. IMHO the sentence


The motor then shifts the function to assist the constant rotation of the platter revolving due to inertia to be maintained and not to be stopped.



is not understandable.

The motors of direct drive turntables are intrinsically synchronous motors - what some people question are the effects of the technique used to control the speed of the platter.

 

[ddk]

David....the AF1 motor is AC...I will quote:

http://techdas.jp/analog_01.html

Hi Christian,

We talked about the motor, power supply and controller and how it impacts some aspects of the sound, I took it for granted that they were using a dc motor. I never noticed the link before, thanks for bringing it up!

That said, the AF-1 is the best current production tt that I've heard on almost every level equal of my two favorites and maybe even better in places but there's still that particular aesthetic, "Natural" (I know!) which I find isn't quite there. I'm nitpicking knowing the background of the company and the importance of that particular aesthetic for me. The PS and controller are doing something there that comes through.

david

 

[ddk]

I have run an SP10 alongside a highly regarded belt drive design, there is absolutely no issue with 'cogging' I thought the SP10 had a more neutral sound ,perhaps initially less impressive .

The SP10 stirred my interest in direct drive designs, which had in the UK had been thoroughly derided by the UK HiFi press.
The Monaco is a modern and more accurate version of the Technics.
Keith.

I can understand that, do you mind sharing what the belt tt was and defining more accurate? Meaning are you basing it on the sound or the measurement?

david

 

[BruceD]

The Monaco is a modern and more accurate version of the Technics.
Keith.

Umm-- I don't think so --sorry the Technics has in my observations qualities more to my liking than the Monaco --like I've said previous a fine DD nevertheless

Just my opinion --like I said we agree to disagree

But the tanks won't roll!

BruceD

 

[bonzo75]

I just heard a SPJ Alba La Luce belt drive today, Lyla tonearm and Koetsu Blue Lace. Beautiful sound.

Oh man, the Bruch Oistrakh and Espana were so awesome on it. Spectral DMA 400 and Rockport Avior in a not so good room was the rest of his system.

 

[Loheswaran]

Quick question

Would a hall generator DC motor be smoother than a quartz lock mechanism? I ask this coz the EMT's use hall generators whereas the Japanese super decks used quartz mechanisms.

 

[ddk]

Would a hall generator DC motor be smoother than a quartz lock mechanism? I ask this coz the EMT's use hall generators whereas the Japanese super decks used quartz mechanisms.

Hard to tell, the 950 is a more or less a closed system and that's the only way I heard it. Its overall sound and presentation is quite different from the SP-10 but there are some commonalities too. EMT is less analytical and imo more musical.

david

 

[microstrip]

Would a hall generator DC motor be smoother than a quartz lock mechanism? I ask this coz the EMT's use hall generators whereas the Japanese super decks used quartz mechanisms.

Quartz lock mechanisms can have hall generators. Usually the hall generators are used to sense the platter position and know when to apply the correction pulse, the quartz lock mechanism just establishes an accurate reference to have absolute stability.

As far as I understand David is not referring to technical specificities, but to fundamental principles - turntables that are free run and turntables that have servo actions (feedback) to control speed.