DSD vs PCM

[FrantzM]

Hi

I am open to change my mind and/or stance on certain things. Many here claim that DSD is superior to PCM. Several DACs actually perform internal PCM to DSD conversion and the results are much loved by some audiophiles. I have heard some DSD that sounded great and some not so much as in any format BTW.

What titles/Discs/Pieces do you know that would allow a fair comparison? Same mastering different coding. That would show off the aleged superiority of DSD?

 

[mep]

Frantz-This can be very tricky to pull off correctly. First, you need to make sure you have hardware/software that is going to playback DSD with no conversion. There are people who think they have heard DSD when all they have heard were PCM files converted to DSD. So, you need real DSD files and software and hardware that is going to play them back in native DSD without any kind of PCM monkey business. As far as finding PCM files and DSD files that came from the exact same source, good luck with that.

 

[jfrech]

Frantz-This can be very tricky to pull off correctly. First, you need to make sure you have hardware/software that is going to playback DSD with no conversion. There are people who think they have heard DSD when all they have heard were PCM files converted to DSD. So, you need real DSD files and software and hardware that is going to play them back in native DSD without any kind of PCM monkey business. As far as finding PCM files and DSD files that came from the exact same source, good luck with that.

Agree with Mep here. It's tough to do and I have the hardware and software to do it. I generally like DSD best...especially native DSD recordings or analog tape to dsd is particularly special. In the end I think the software and quality of the recording plays a crucial part. DXD maybe my favorite...although I don't have enough software to state this strongly...

 

[audio.bill]

As far as finding PCM files and DSD files that came from the exact same source, good luck with that.

I have one album that is available from Sound Liaison, "Impromptu", which was directly mastered in 24/96 PCM and DSD64 in parallel which could be used for such a format comparison. It also happens to be an enjoyable live performance and a very high quality recording, which is not too common to find. Highly recommended!

 

[amirm]

I would think every title that is released in both formats, was encoded using one or the other at recording stage. Short of simultaneous analog capture in both, then identical editing in both, then there won't be a proper comparison.

A practical approach may be to get some favorite music and see in which flavor it sounds better, regardless of how it came about.

 

[Joe Whip]

The folks at Sound Liason sent me one track of Impromptu in both PCM and DSD. Both sounded great although I preferred the sound of the PCM track. I bought the entire album in PCM. I thought it had the snap of what I would expect to hear live. The DSD sounded a tad rolled off.

 

[astrotoy]

Frantz, there seems to be the implication in your proposed test that true DSD DAC's are all about the same, as are true PCM DAC's. I have both a pure DSD DAC (Exasound E28, although it also does pure PCM)) and several pure PCM only DAC's (BADA2 and PM Model Two - which is an ADAC, and AK120 and Meridian Explorer for portable use). If, for example, you have a really, really fine PCM DAC, and a mediocre DSD DAC, if the DSD file sounds better through the PCM DAC (especially reconverted to PCM as BADA Reference recommends) than the mediocre DSD, does that mean that PCM is better than DSD? On the other hand, if a really fine pure DSD sounds better than a mediocre PCM DAC, does that mean that DSD is better than PCM? I would think not in both cases.

Larry

 

[microstrip]

Agree with Mep here. It's tough to do and I have the hardware and software to do it. I generally like DSD best...especially native DSD recordings or analog tape to dsd is particularly special. In the end I think the software and quality of the recording plays a crucial part. DXD maybe my favorite...although I don't have enough software to state this strongly...

You own one of the few converters I would trust to carry such tests. IMHO the format preference depends strongly on the implementation and musical content of the recording. Did you listen to the David Wilson tapes mastered for PCM and DSD by BruceB?

 

[esldude]

Well, what comes to mind when people say which is better depends upon the equipment it is implemented upon, is that the difference must be small. Not necessarily meaningless, not necessarily non-existent, but small. If it were large, if one were as much better than the other as say 30 ips reel to reel is over 7.5 ips RTR then it would be clear with any reasonably good hardware implementation. So whichever might be better would be swamped by a couple orders of magnitude by the quality of the recording. So getting very bent out of shape about one vs the other is rather misplaced enthusiasm.

 

[bonzo75]

Hi

I am open to change my mind and/or stance on certain things. Many here claim that DSD is superior to PCM. Several DACs actually perform internal PCM to DSD conversion and the results are much loved by some audiophiles. I have heard some DSD that sounded great and some not so much as in any format BTW.

What titles/Discs/Pieces do you know that would allow a fair comparison? Same mastering different coding. That would show off the aleged superiority of DSD?

IMO internal upsampling in a dac is not as good, because a dac is restricted due to budget, and expertise (the designer probably has dac designing expertise, and not upsampling software expertise). To keep upgrading s/w on a dac might be expensive given their profit margins

What you will notice on the Lampi threads is that people leave the upsampling to a software expert (Jussi, who is the guy behind HQ Player), and then feed in the upsampled track into the Lampi, which plays DSD natively. Upsampling is like DSP, based on the filters you can screw it up, or you can get it right - Jussi gets it right.


You could download native flac and dsd from Channel Classics as a package - same tracks, and then compare them, and also compare the flac upsampled by Jriver and HQPlayer to the native flac and dsd. Channel Classics has high quality downloads.

 

[wisnon]

Frantz-This can be very tricky to pull off correctly. First, you need to make sure you have hardware/software that is going to playback DSD with no conversion. There are people who think they have heard DSD when all they have heard were PCM files converted to DSD. So, you need real DSD files and software and hardware that is going to play them back in native DSD without any kind of PCM monkey business. As far as finding PCM files and DSD files that came from the exact same source, good luck with that.

Hi Mark,

This album was simultaneously recording in 24/96 and DSD64:
Massimo Gon Pianoforte - Franz Liszt Grandes Etudes Pour le Piano

 

[wisnon]

Agree with Mep here. It's tough to do and I have the hardware and software to do it. I generally like DSD best...especially native DSD recordings or analog tape to dsd is particularly special. In the end I think the software and quality of the recording plays a crucial part. DXD maybe my favorite...although I don't have enough software to state this strongly...

Fair points...I think I like DSD128 best, so far. I can only play DSD256 and up on my iDSD, while I can play DXD and DSD128 on my Lampi.

 

[wisnon]

The folks at Sound Liason sent me one track of Impromptu in both PCM and DSD. Both sounded great although I preferred the sound of the PCM track. I bought the entire album in PCM. I thought it had the snap of what I would expect to hear live. The DSD sounded a tad rolled off.

Was the song recorded IN DSD or PCM? It matters, as its relatively easy to do offline conversions and normally it will sound best in the native recorded state.

 

[wisnon]

Frantz, there seems to be the implication in your proposed test that true DSD DAC's are all about the same, as are true PCM DAC's. I have both a pure DSD DAC (Exasound E28, although it also does pure PCM)) and several pure PCM only DAC's (BADA2 and PM Model Two - which is an ADAC, and AK120 and Meridian Explorer for portable use). If, for example, you have a really, really fine PCM DAC, and a mediocre DSD DAC, if the DSD file sounds better through the PCM DAC (especially reconverted to PCM as BADA Reference recommends) than the mediocre DSD, does that mean that PCM is better than DSD? On the other hand, if a really fine pure DSD sounds better than a mediocre PCM DAC, does that mean that DSD is better than PCM? I would think not in both cases.

Larry

For me TRUE DSD must be only low pass filtration, as any extra processing etc, diminishes DSD which is very jitter sensitive.
It is counterintuitive, BUT its easier to find and listen to a PURE DSD chain, as opposed to a PURE PCM chain, as PCM has been so Delta sigma polluted.

To hear TRUE PCM, you need something like a Pacific Microsonics 2 which has a ladder ADC to record the music in Pure PCMM and then have it played back via a R2R/Ladder Dac with no Sigma-Delata modulation step along the way. This is soooo difficult for most people to manage. PM-2 cost like $20K used and are hard to find. Then you need to skillfully record the music of a live studio/concert hall performance and have a quality R2R Dac to play it back (BB1704 chipset or the like).

For true DSD, there are over 1,500 direct to DSD recordings (albums) and a similar amount of Tape transfers to DSD and even vinyl rips that can be played back by a sweetspot DSD Dac like a Lampi DSD-only or Mytek or ExaSound. Much easier and cheaper to realize.

 

[wisnon]

I have one album that is available from Sound Liaison, "Impromptu", which was directly mastered in 24/96 PCM and DSD64 in parallel which could be used for such a format comparison. It also happens to be an enjoyable live performance and a very high quality recording, which is not too common to find. Highly recommended!

Are you sure?

They say this on their website:

DSD



Our original idea was to only provide one to one copies of the original studio masters.
But we have had a number of requests to provide DSD downloads of our recordings.
We have been consulting various experts as well as conducting our own experiments on how to transfer our recordings to DSD.
What we finally arrived upon was that, in order to make full use of the sonic qualities of DSD, we would need to create new masters especially for the DSD medium.
After a full year of trial and error we finally found, what we believe, is the ultimate DSD conversion method. We transfer the PCM files via an analogue signal chain, using the best possible outboard gear to create a new DSD master file, and in so doing, embellish the unique qualities of DSD.

So just to clarify; Our DSD masters are not original studio masters.
We record in PCM, so if you want a native one to one copy of the original studio master, without any kind of conversion, choose the PCM download.With one exception, Impromtu (Tony Overwater & Bert van den Brink), was recorded direct to PCM and direct to DSD with two seperate recorders.

 

[Joe Whip]

Was the song recorded IN DSD or PCM? It matters, as its relatively easy to do offline conversions and normally it will sound best in the native recorded state.

It was recorded in both. Same mic feed outputed to two separate recorders. I would assume that both would pure DSD the other PCM, unlike the DSD versions for the rest of their catalogue as you noted above. Impromtu was the first release that they handled like this.

 

[wisnon]

OK, that one must be different than the rest. They say the ONLY (studio) record in PCM and then do playback and re-record the analog stream to DSD. Thus a PCM to analog to DSD rip.

 

[Bruce B]

I've done this hundreds of times for tape transfers and even put samples up for folks to download and listen for themselves.

The Tsuyoshi Yamamoto "What A Wonderful Trio" on the FIM label was recorded at DSD, DXD. ProTools 24/192 and Tape simultaneously. Though only available on CD, I did work with the original sources and can say unfortunately, tape did not sound the best at this time. The producer chose the DXD files. I liked the DSD files.

 

[Joe Whip]

OK, that one must be different than the rest. They say the ONLY (studio) record in PCM and then do playback and re-record the analog stream to DSD. Thus a PCM to analog to DSD rip.

Here is the rest of the description from the Sl website:


So just to clarify; Our DSD masters are not original studio masters.
We record in PCM, so if you want a native one to one copy of the original studio master, without any kind of conversion, choose the PCM download.
With one exception, Impromtu (Tony Overwater & Bert van den Brink), was recorded direct to PCM and direct to DSD with two seperate recorders.
SOUND LIAISON

Laan 1940 1945 29
1222 NG Hilversum

Netherlands

mobile +31 (0) 654316705

info@soundliaison.com

 

[audio.bill]

Are you sure?

They say this on their website:

DSD



Our original idea was to only provide one to one copies of the original studio masters.
But we have had a number of requests to provide DSD downloads of our recordings.
We have been consulting various experts as well as conducting our own experiments on how to transfer our recordings to DSD.
What we finally arrived upon was that, in order to make full use of the sonic qualities of DSD, we would need to create new masters especially for the DSD medium.
After a full year of trial and error we finally found, what we believe, is the ultimate DSD conversion method. We transfer the PCM files via an analogue signal chain, using the best possible outboard gear to create a new DSD master file, and in so doing, embellish the unique qualities of DSD.

So just to clarify; Our DSD masters are not original studio masters.
We record in PCM, so if you want a native one to one copy of the original studio master, without any kind of conversion, choose the PCM download.With one exception, Impromtu (Tony Overwater & Bert van den Brink), was recorded direct to PCM and direct to DSD with two seperate recorders.

As stated in the last sentence you quoted above, "With one exception, Impromtu (Tony Overwater & Bert van den Brink), was recorded direct to PCM and direct to DSD with two seperate recorders."