Zero Distortion: Tango Time

[Tango]

Thank you, Tang. I listened to the whole piece. As solo violin goes it is pretty involving and exciting. I almost liked it!

I listened to the last movement of Mozart Symphony 41 at least six times this week. I definitely like that.

That Heifetz is for tape. Try Kogan more dramatic version here. This one made me dance in the shower. I have the Kogan in vinyl.

Tang

 

[zerostargeneral]

One of the three Odessa kings.

Kindest regards,G.

 

[tima]

One of the three Odessa kings.

Kindest regards,G.

Oistrakh and Richter (studied in Odessa)? Do you count Milstein or Gilels? Perhaps they are princes.

 

[zerostargeneral]

The three of whom I speak;Heifetz,Kogan and Oistrakh.

The Gilels are both princes indeed.

Kindest regards,G.

 

[Tango]

The three of whom I speak;Heifetz,Kogan and Oistrakh.

The Gilels are both princes indeed.

Kindest regards,G.

Given my limited experience. My third favorite is Menuhin.

Kind redards,
Tang

 

[zerostargeneral]

Tang your experience may be limited but your learning curve is very steep.

Classical music should never be mired by elitist pedants.I prefer to see the genre as cipher that can be unravelled and appreciated by all.

Kindest regards,G.

 

[bonzo75]

Tang, limited experience never stopped anyone on the forum from writing who's / what's best

 

[the sound of Tao]

Sometimes experience actually gets in the way of being absolute... great to hear Tang that you are genuinely loving what you find along the way.

At the risk of being controversial I am a shade unsure though that all the great performing artists are only those that are currently dead.

There is clearly true greatness and also a certain coloured romance in the old recordings that also tend to centre everything perhaps a bit more in the mid range. I was raised on Heifetz and Oistrakh but only forever grazing on the old school we do risk becoming crusty old dudes. I love the old school but there is also phenomenal classical music being performed and recorded in the current era as well. Just perhaps doesn’t immediately sound quite as magical when recorded in more contemporary (maybe more linear) and so perhaps less romantic (and perhaps even ultimately less natural) ways.

 

[Tango]

Tang your experience may be limited but your learning curve is very steep.

Classical music should never be mired by elitist pedants.I prefer to see the genre as cipher that can be unravelled and appreciated by all.

Kindest regards,G.

Sawasdee G,

Thanks for your kind words. There is a very interesting double violin concerto on Bach by Oistrakh and Menuhin. I searched and found only one vinyl featuring the two together, but I dont know if this double violin is the same one I heard on the video. I bought it anyway. It is on its way to me at the moment. I dont know if this vinyl is a hit-and-miss or not sonicly. In case it sucks, G. do you have this piece in your archive in different pressing?

Kind regards,
Tang

 

[marty]

Here is my second system in the bathroom. Dont you guys think I dont do digital. Digital is my pathway to good music.

Maybe one day I send this mono system to pnoe to change the driver to BD1.

View attachment 49387

Kind regards,
Tang

That Marshall is an unsung masterpiece. It's the ultimate champion for the jacuzzi or the pool....or the bathroom! It makes really nice music in large part due to tone controls! Imagine that. Being able to tune the sound to your environment! High end audio gets so many things wrong.

 

[marty]

The three of whom I speak;Heifetz,Kogan and Oistrakh.

The Gilels are both princes indeed.

Kindest regards,G.

I'm not sure why you are calling Heifetz, Kogan and Oistrach the "Odessa Kings"? Only Oistrach was from Odessa. Heifetz was a Lithuanian who studied mostly in St. Petersburg and Kogan was from Dnipro, Ukraine, about 400 miles from Odessa. Kogan moved to Moscow at age 10 to pursue his vioiin studies.

 

[zerostargeneral]

Allen Stag joked periodically about the magical waters of Odessa,imbuing the musical greatness of those behind the IRON CURTAIN.

The language they shared was music not regions of the USSR.One can only imagine the difficulties they all,on both sides,were forced to overcome in order to collaborate.

Dear Marty please allow a small amount of artistic license that I may share an antiquated quip that often broke the ice between extremely pensive and studious protagonists at the all time zenith of their respective fields?

Kindest Regards,G.

 

[zerostargeneral]

Dear Tang,

This recording is magnificent,Bach double is in my top 100.

My favourite is the Milstein Morini or maybe the Erlih.

The one you have purchased is great no need for another version of said performance.

Kindest regards,G.

 

[bonzo75]

While the two of you are discussing Oistrakh, Kogan, heifetz, Bach, and Tchaikovsky, Miguel of tripoint has started a thread on Facebook that a bozo went to this set up and wrote up a report that does not feature tripoint. Hopefully his fans will come over to trash the report and learn something about recordings and performances.

 

[bonzo75]

Tang the Milstein Morini is excellent. Ann Sophie mutter and maxim vengerov disappointed me that evening as I had heard the Milstein Morini in the morning. I would have recommended it for your earlier box but at that time you were more prone in favor of stereo from an earlier discussion, so didn't. This is a mono. But sounds as good as anything you have.

 

[the sound of Tao]

While being more than very much old enough to have completely embraced many of (actually so far all) the great players that feature on the fabulous early recordings that you guys (Tang, the General, Bill, Ked and all similarly collecting) as my experience of them is more dominated originally to mostly vinyl reissues of the 70’s through to 90’s and on a range of remasters, pressings and formats since then.

In my first major relationship in my early twenties our only ever unresolved argument was Brahms Violin Concerto... Heifetz, Oistrakh or Stern... for me it was easily #1 and #2

Certainly if was in the position that I currently was fortunate enough that I had a Vyger or American Sound I’d likely also be in a similar position to be chasing these very same precious records that you are now celebrating.

So without having heard what you guys are clearly hearing (and I don’t at all doubt the magic is completely there) but I’d love to know your thoughts on where the various elements of the magic lies for you.

None of the questions I ask below have any agenda other than a joyous curiousity and an awareness that performance is central to this chase and that no body is buying stampers as soulless audiophile records but rather pure music direct from the masters (double entendres actually meant).

But is it all and only just purely musical performance. If these performances where recorded at a different time say the 70’s 80’s etc do you feel their performances be sitting quite as proud and virtuosic landmarks and so extraordinary as to be hallowed.

Do you see the fact that these icons of classical music also were of an age as to have lived on the trailing edge in the closing moments of the romantic period itself that this also gives them a cultural advantage and an access and authenticity to the true romantic style.

Is it also about the nature of lineage and the training and discipline of the schools and academys and music halls of the late 1800’s and early 1900’s as the romantic period faded before the uptake of the light of the revolution that was the Moderns.

Is the fact that these were among the early recordings and that there was still a braveness and absolute technical aspiration that fed into the pure intention behind these recordings.

Is it about the purity of the approach for both musicians and technicians in a time when there was perhaps an even greater gravitas in both persuasions and perhaps even a different sense of duty and responsibility to an older world notion of celebrity.

Can it be also about the advantage of the medium at this time and it’s simplicity and directness and with its focus of the core of the music being held deeply within the midrange which also absolutely suits the strengths of vinyl, horns and SET and perhaps music itself.

Is it joyously rose coloured and just absolutely marvellous and truly musical because of that.

Is it other things or is it just plainly that they are simply dominantly amongst the very best performances ever regardless of the sonics.

Would love to know your thoughts if at all possible. I have had many of the greats from these recording in a range of performances as cherished recordings since I was about 15 or so (oh my many many years) and absolutely no issue understanding your deep love of their work. They are among my very favourite classical musical performers of all time as well.

I’ve only been collecting and listening to classical (and jazz) music for about 4 to 5 decades (hmmm sigh) and have grown to hear and see a sea change in music and still found priceless treasures all the way along that have also then moved and changed me and my world view.

Would love to know how these wonderous recordings have fuelled your fires and maybe understand how the spirit of music, musician and sound really drive these particular records into the sublime for you.

 

[Audiophile Bill]

While being more than very much old enough to have completely embraced many of (actually so far all) the great players that feature on the fabulous early recordings that you guys (Tang, the General, Bill, Ked and all similarly collecting) as my experience of them is more dominated originally to mostly vinyl reissues of the 70’s through to 90’s and on a range of remasters, pressings and formats since then.

In my first major relationship in my early twenties our only ever unresolved argument was Brahms Violin Concerto... Heifetz, Oistrakh or Stern... for me it was easily #1 and #2

Certainly if was in the position that I currently was fortunate enough that I had a Vyger or American Sound I’d likely also be in a similar position to be chasing these very same precious records that you are now celebrating.

So without having heard what you guys are clearly hearing (and I don’t at all doubt the magic is completely there) but I’d love to know your thoughts on where the various elements of the magic lies for you.

None of the questions I ask below have any agenda other than a joyous curiousity and an awareness that performance is central to this chase and that no body is buying stampers as soulless audiophile records but rather pure music direct from the masters (double entendres actually meant).

But is it all and only just purely musical performance. If these performances where recorded at a different time say the 70’s 80’s etc do you feel their performances be sitting quite as proud and virtuosic landmarks and so extraordinary as to be hallowed.

Do you see the fact that these icons of classical music also were of an age as to have lived on the trailing edge in the closing moments of the romantic period itself that this also gives them a cultural advantage and an access and authenticity to the true romantic style.

Is it also about the nature of lineage and the training and discipline of the schools and academys and music halls of the late 1800’s and early 1900’s as the romantic period faded before the uptake of the light of the revolution that was the Moderns.

Is the fact that these were among the early recordings and that there was still a braveness and absolute technical aspiration that fed into the pure intention behind these recordings.

Is it about the purity of the approach for both musicians and technicians in a time when there was perhaps an even greater gravitas in both persuasions and perhaps even a different sense of duty and responsibility to an older world notion of celebrity.

Can it be also about the advantage of the medium at this time and it’s simplicity and directness and with its focus of the core of the music being held deeply within the midrange which also absolutely suits the strengths of vinyl, horns and SET.

Is it joyously rose coloured and just absolutely marvellous and truly musical because of that.

Is it other things or is it just plainly that they are simply dominantly amongst the very best performances ever regardless of the sonics.

Would love to know your thoughts if at all possible. I have had many of the greats from these recording in a range of performances as cherished recordings since I was about 15 or so (oh my many many years) and absolutely no issue understanding your deep love of their work. They are among my very favourite classical musical performers of all time as well.

I’ve only been collecting and listening to classical (and jazz) music for about 40 years (hmmm sigh) and have grown to see a sea change in music and found priceless treasures all the way that have also then changed me. Would love to know how these recordings have fuelled your fires and maybe understand how the spirit of music, musician and sound really drive these particular records into the sublime for you.

Morning dear Tao,

You have actually put forth most of the argumentation that I would have described as to why my preference resides with the “golden era” of classical recordings. Of those you mention, the following are most pertinent to me:

>> I think there was a cultural advantage of the times in that many of these folks lived in a *very* different world indeed. The differences of said world (imho) yielded an environment with less competing demands for time, a deeper thirst (almost moral duty) for pursuing absolute perfection at the expense of oneself, and a determination to prosper in an era dominated by 2 World Wars

>> Sonically I believe arguments are less focussed by dominance of the mid range -instead pursual of the greatest fidelity recordings using mainly valve based recording chains and analogue tape. I believe that engineers at the time were less relatively constrained by budget instead focusing on creating incredible long lasting art. I don’t want to open the hornets nest right now, but some of the mono analogue recordings in the mid 50s sound vastly superior (and I am not exaggerating one) in absolute terms to anything available regardless of time. Recording of the modern era has become mainly a game of economics for the majority - this comes at the savage expense of the end product (as we all very well know). The “audiophile” labels that take much more care about sonics unfortunately only record lack lustre performers and untalented unknowns for the most part. This is the very ugly wart on the “audiophile” hobby imho.

So in summary, I strongly defend the position that this is not about historical romanticism and instead about performance and recording perfection in an era when the stars aligned - we will never see this again imho.

Best wishes for Sunday.

 

[bonzo75]

Don't forget that with the oldies, there is a survivorship filter applied. The performances and recordings that are sought today are indeed great and have stayed so over 50 years.

This argument also gets applied to rock. Oh isn't someone modem as great as led zep, and is there nostalgia with led zep? No!

Especially when people born after their era, and not brought up on LPs are seeking them out, there is a reason.

I have watched many violinists ongoing
Including Ann Sophie mutter, vengerov, Leonid Kavakos, Nicola Benedetti, sergej Krylev (lesser known but live performed my favorite versions of Mendelssohn and Tchaikovsky), Benedetti did an amazing Beethoven, and others... I have tried listening to recordings of these people and none are good enough. Maybe their best performances haven't been captured, or haven't been recorded properly. Live they are great.

As audiophiles we want performances plus sonics. Those who only want sonics should listen to tape. Those who only want performance should listen to spotify. The LPs of the golden era capture the best cross between sonics and performance, because apart from the performers, it was the equipment, cutters, delimiters, mastering equipment etc that was used. You can get into a long discussion with the general where he can show you that when certain labels sold off equipment and changed it, their quality collapsed.

Reissues lead to less appreciation of the performance because while the score might be interpreted the same, the nuance, dynamic extension, and tone isn't reproduced as well.

So, I have heard many performances at his, and my initial trips were focused on playing modem conductors and performers and comparing reissues to his originals. Now I don't bother. The Mendelssohn Campoli SXL 2026 that tang put up on the other thread is one of the best LPs l have heard at his place. I liked it and cannot afford it, but I would never waste 40 quid on an analogphoinc reissue, I would any day prefer playing a download through my Lampi.

Ps: I am writing quickly as we are walking around Venice. Apologies if I missed addressing any point

 

[the sound of Tao]

Morning dear Tao,

You have actually put forth most of the argumentation that I would have described as to why my preference resides with the “golden era” of classical recordings. Of those you mention, the following are most pertinent to me:

>> I think there was a cultural advantage of the times in that many of these folks lived in a *very* different world indeed. The differences of said world (imho) yielded an environment with less competing demands for time, a deeper thirst (almost moral duty) for pursuing absolute perfection at the expense of oneself, and a determination to prosper in an era dominated by 2 World Wars

>> Sonically I believe arguments are less focussed by dominance of the mid range -instead pursual of the greatest fidelity recordings using mainly valve based recording chains and analogue tape. I believe that engineers at the time were less relatively constrained by budget instead focusing on creating incredible long lasting art. I don’t want to open the hornets nest right now, but some of the mono analogue recordings in the mid 50s sound vastly superior (and I am not exaggerating one) in absolute terms to anything available regardless of time. Recording of the modern era has become mainly a game of economics for the majority - this comes at the savage expense of the end product (as we all very well know). The “audiophile” labels that take much more care about sonics unfortunately only record lack lustre performers and untalented unknowns for the most part. This is the very ugly wart on the “audiophile” hobby imho.

So in summary, I strongly defend the position that this is not about historical romanticism and instead about performance and recording perfection in an era when the stars aligned - we will never see this again imho.

Best wishes for Sunday.

Dear Bill,
Sunday has been very fine thank you, I have been out into the ocean and just now listening on Sunday evening to jazz via the SET and horns (two out of three ain’t bad) and as happy as a swimmer and music lover with a robust and layered shiraz in a riedel can be.

Very much appreciate your point on fidelity and also the values of the time in an aspiring Apollonian society with the new world technician very much approaching fidelity in recording pursuit as artform.

Also your point that this was a time between the great wars would also have been an extraordinary cultural additive even possibly an inspiration. Things could surely only ever be substantial when life and freedom have been at each other so horribly in battle in such a way and perhaps the highly visible horror and tragedy charged for even deeper values than perhaps were likely in less substantial times. There was so much resource for art and the expression of pain and loss.

The golden age, will it all pass this way again... yes, love it when the stars align. These are cycles. The stars always return just whether us poor mortals are here to witness them or not becomes the true unknowable.

Your thoughts (as always) much appreciated and hoping your day is also a mighty fine one.

 

[the sound of Tao]

Don't forget that with the oldies, there is a survivorship filter applied. The performances and recordings that are sought today are indeed great and have stayed so over 50 years.

This argument also gets applied to rock. Oh isn't someone modem as great as led zep, and is there nostalgia with led zep? No!

Especially when people born after their era, and not brought up on LPs are seeking them out, there is a reason.

I have watched many violinists ongoing
Including Ann Sophie mutter, vengerov, Leonid Kavakos, Nicola Benedetti, sergej Krylev (lesser known but live performed my favorite versions of Mendelssohn and Tchaikovsky), Benedetti did an amazing Beethoven, and others... I have tried listening to recordings of these people and none are good enough. Maybe their best performances haven't been captured, or haven't been recorded properly. Live they are great.

As audiophiles we want performances plus sonics. Those who only want sonics should listen to tape. Those who only want performance should listen to spotify. The LPs of the golden era capture the best cross between sonics and performance, because apart from the performers, it was the equipment, cutters, delimiters, mastering equipment etc that was used. You can get into a long discussion with the general where he can show you that when certain labels sold off equipment and changed it, their quality collapsed.

Reissues lead to less appreciation of the performance because while the score might be interpreted the same, the nuance, dynamic extension, and tone isn't reproduced as well.

So, I have heard many performances at his, and my initial trips were focused on playing modem conductors and performers and comparing reissues to his originals. Now I don't bother. The Mendelssohn Campoli SXL 2026 that tang put up on the other thread is one of the best LPs l have heard at his place. I liked it and cannot afford it, but I would never waste 40 quid on an analogphoinc reissue, I would any day prefer playing a download through my Lampi.

Ps: I am writing quickly as we are walking around Venice. Apologies if I missed addressing any point

The fact that your walking around Venice means your not actually missing anything Ked. Thank you, nice compare on the contemporary classical performer and their recordings.

I have no doubts that classical music is served in live performance by the great classical line right through. There are so many amazing musicians, perhaps that has been one of the areas where modern day has actually served us, diversity in the number of musicians we can access even if they are not yet recorded in the absolute best light.

On tape yes, I started my work in film and television production and multi tracking to analogue tape was where it was at. But the multi track was such a disconnect. I used to direct advertising shoots and my favourite part was in the audio studio recording and mixing down the audio (naturally). My uncle had showed me how to lace up a nagra reel to reel when I was starting at high school and I first took a sennheiser shotgun mike out in the middle of a forest to wild reel sound effects for a doco for a car rally for his film company during school holidays. Listening to a car scream through a distance with headphones, and a super directional mike was such a buzz. The more layered the audio process got the less of a buzz it seemed.

You are right about the compromises between sonics and performance. I do feel that accessibility and acceptability with streaming is getting closer to at least musicality if clearly not yet at the level of absolute fidelity.