Zero Distortion: Tango Time

[XV-1]

This thread has taken a strange twist

 

[Folsom]

View attachment 65819View attachment 65820

I don't in the least bit believe that it's a case of people simply changing things they shouldn't... I just don't. That's absurd. Anyways back to regular programming.

 

[awsmone]

And to note I don’t understand why you guys are running with really complicated ideas for the amps. I see plenty of room for a wide shelf for them to be on that has legs that go down on each side of the bass cabs between them and speakers. You could have the shelf be stainless, with heavy legs holding it up.

 

[Tango]

View attachment 65822

Allow me to answer for audioquattr since we have the same one. No. Not on sub and not under sub. First, look at sub of my pic, it looks like a one piece sub. But actually it consists of left and right sub put together. So in the case of audioquattr's pic above, the left and right subs were separately standing apart with enough space in between to put a rack of equipments in the middle.

 

[howiebrou]

Those amps weigh more than Tang, he will end up being suspended under the ceiling

New rule. Only suspend amps that weigh less than you. I'm gonna try some D'Agostino Relentless monoblocks...

 

[Lagonda]

This thread has taken a strange twist

This thread Is Tangs thread, and like him it has been many places, and will go manny more !

 

[howiebrou]

I actually think suspending the amps would.look great just about a foot off the top of the basshorns. You can use a well designed pulley system that allows you to just raise and lower like a traditional

 

[awsmone]

Allow me to answer for audioquattr since we have the same one. No. Not on sub and not under sub. First, look at sub of my pic, it looks like a one piece sub. But actually it consists of left and right sub put together. So in the case of audioquattr's pic above, the left and right subs were separately standing apart with enough space in between to put a rack of equipments in the middle.

Ah ha , i didn’t think that could be the case with such a high end system, but is even between two subs a good idea ?

and if u can put something between why not a pedestal and amplifier stands for you ?
Not suggesting this furniture just the idea

ni

 

[bonzo75]

Ah ha , i didn’t think that could be the case with such a high end system, but is even between two subs a good idea ?

and if u can put something between why not a pedestal and amplifier stands for you ?

It's a philosophy of not wanting to use cables and vibration control for him

 

[G T Audio]

http://zero-distortion.org/cessaro-...merican-sound-sme-3012r-many-carts-much-more/

Here you go...was waiting for the platform change to post.

• It is important to note that I was here for 4 days. My conclusions changed as we moved from Day 1 to Day 2 to Day 3. So, if you start reading, and stop somewhere in the middle, you could be simply be reading a thought in transition.
• I have presented Day by Day, added quite a few notes record by record, which I am aware can be too much detail to follow in one reading. All has been summed up in the conclusion.

Sorry to be late to the party on this thread as it has only just popped into my inbox. Not sure why that was the case.

Anyway, it is absolutely paramount with speakers such as the Cessaros and if concrete floors are involved (even some wood floors) that you use a properly suspended turntable, or mount an unsuspended turntable on some sort of isolation platform that will filter frequencies out above 3Hz. High mass turntables or turntables with no suspension are very susceptible to acoustic feedback with large speakers such as Cessaro's, especially where bass horns are involved. This will give all sorts of acoustic anomalies which could cause areas of performance to be accentuated and effect results where meaningful evaluation is being done.

 

[Tango]

Sorry to be late to the party on this thread as it has only just popped into my inbox. Not sure why that was the case.

Anyway, it is absolutely paramount with speakers such as the Cessaros and if concrete floors are involved (even some wood floors) that you use a properly suspended turntable, or mount an unsuspended turntable on some sort of isolation platform that will filter frequencies out above 3Hz. High mass turntables or turntables with no suspension are very susceptible to acoustic feedback with large speakers such as Cessaro's, especially where bass horns are involved. This will give all sorts of acoustic anomalies which could cause areas of performance to be accentuated and effect results where meaningful evaluation is being done.

Not much a fan of suspended turntable and isolation platform. Not that I don't have them or use them. They are equally pluses to minuses imo. My wife likes to say "not worth the calories."

 

[spiritofmusic]

Sorry to be late to the party on this thread as it has only just popped into my inbox. Not sure why that was the case.

Anyway, it is absolutely paramount with speakers such as the Cessaros and if concrete floors are involved (even some wood floors) that you use a properly suspended turntable, or mount an unsuspended turntable on some sort of isolation platform that will filter frequencies out above 3Hz. High mass turntables or turntables with no suspension are very susceptible to acoustic feedback with large speakers such as Cessaro's, especially where bass horns are involved. This will give all sorts of acoustic anomalies which could cause areas of performance to be accentuated and effect results where meaningful evaluation is being done.

Graham, what do you think of Cessaro Ralph at Munich putting a TW Acustic AC-3 tt on a stand directly btwn the Beta IIs in front of Tang's basshorns?
I know what I think...amazed he can get a half dozen sales of these, and Zetas ie his big beasts, based on that setup faux pas.

 

[awsmone]

As bass is Omni directional is in front in between on top etc
any different
I am really confused that Tang or his friends set up make any sense with DHT with a bass horn
please enlighten me why it’s not so ?

 

[G T Audio]

Graham, what do you think of Cessaro Ralph at Munich putting a TW Acustic AC-3 tt on a stand directly btwn the Beta IIs in front of Tang's basshorns?
I know what I think...amazed he can get a half dozen sales of these, and Zetas ie his big beasts, based on that setup faux pas.

The Munich show, much like any Hi-Fi show is always going to be a compromise between presentation and trying to get a great sound. Having exhibited with Ralph at Munich 3 years running (2012-2014), I know all too well the problems with sound in those rooms and what is required to make the room acceptable, for both aesthetics as in showing off your products as well as delivering a good sound. I agree with you about placing any turntable near a speaker capable of generating a huge amount of energy, especially low-frequency energy. This should be avoided at all cost. Worth noting that Munich for most manufacturers is an opportunity to show or display new products to your international distributors and is not necessarily about trying to achieve the best possible sound, although I am sure most try to do that as well. In Ralph's own personal system I know he uses a special isolation platform for his Raven Black Night. It is similar to what is used under an electron microscope for the very reason I described above.

P.S. Ralph gets more than half a dozen sales of those big systems. He spends most of his time installing speaker systems in Asia all year round.

 

[Folsom]

So G T, where’s your white papers showing that SPL from physically larger speakers creates more vibrations in the floor than smaller speakers with equal SPL?

 

[bonzo75]

So G T, where’s your white papers showing that SPL from physically larger speakers creates more vibrations in the floor than smaller speakers with equal SPL?

The vibration effect on Mike's TTs changed after he moved from MM3 to MM7'

 

[Folsom]

The vibration effect on Mike's TTs changed after he moved from MM3 to MM7'

And yet that isn’t an indicator at all of SPL in itself. The MM7’s have multiple placements for lower frequencies and will inherently have different shaped modes/nodes.

It would be more accurate to say, “Mike’s vibration effect on his TT changed when addings subwoofers/speaker placement”.

Tang simply added bass frequencies. It isn’t because of the size of the boxes/horns themselves. The only legit concern with “physically larger boxes” is that they have different tunings for room gain because designers assume you don’t put massive speakers in a closet.

I’m vehemently against the preposterous myth that SPL in a given space is different than SPL in the same space; especially when the reason is “it looks larger” (even if it has the same drivers).

 

[Mike Lavigne]

The vibration effect on Mike's TTs changed after he moved from MM3 to MM7'

And yet that isn’t an indicator at all of SPL in itself. The MM7’s have multiple placements for lower frequencies and will inherently have different shaped modes/nodes.

It would be more accurate to say, “Mike’s vibration effect on his TT changed when addings subwoofers/speaker placement”.

going from MM3 to MM7 bass towers were another 18 inches closer to my turntable, and went deeper with more driver surface. so a combination of proximity and more drivers and deeper bass. also; the bass tower and it's feedback through the floor was closer.

all of a sudden i was hearing distortion during female vocals, cello, and double bass. in a couple of cases i assumed my pressings were damaged, and acquired different pressings.......getting the same problem. i was mystified.

a few months later i, independent of this concern, did acquire the Herzan TS-140 for my NVS tt. immediately i realized what was going on.

likely there had always been feedback but it did not jump out as noticeable distortion until i crossed a threshold. unlikely any system is immune to this. our system structures and gear 'sing' along with the music unless we deal with it.

 

[G T Audio]

So G T, where’s your white papers showing that SPL from physically larger speakers creates more vibrations in the floor than smaller speakers with equal SPL?

Firstly, I made no reference to small vs large speakers creating more vibrations. I mentioned speakers like the Cessaro's because these are bigger than most and have large multiple drivers, all bass drivers are 12" to 16" in size and are actively driven, so there is an enormous amount of low frequency energy produced. If these are near a turntable or even 4-5 metres away, and the turntable is not isolated then you will have big problems.

Regarding your reference to a white paper: this is basic audio engineering that was documented decades ago, but I'll give you my standard answer to this by linking to Max Townshend's video about seismic vibration with speakers which shows it nice and concisely and to the point with good visuals.

Seismic Isolation

 

[Tango]

As bass is Omni directional is in front in between on top etc
any different
I am really confused that Tang or his friends set up make any sense with DHT with a bass horn
please enlighten me why it’s not so ?

Hi Andrew,

There is really nothing to enlighten you. It does not seem to make any audiophile sense at all placing the Lamm on top of the gigantic bass horn. But I put them there anyway because of my lack of space and unwillingness to buy cables. i am now in the mode of using what I have. But guess what I am hearing another higher level of reproduced music right now even with the base horn potentially vibrating the hell out of the Lamm. The sound is so "live" right now. I am very surprised with what I am hearing given everyone else has been warning me about possible abnormalities that could come from the sub and the length of time it would take to dial it in. I cannot explain. I just go by my ears and I have been very critical listening trying to fault what I hear. It has been 4 days now. My electronics and cables are operating at top form. It just sound great...better than ever. I will live with status quo for a while and see if my opinion changes. But right now I don't even know why I would even want to pursue further with different amps placement or amp anti vibration platforms. Yes there is always a question in my head if it could go beyond shall i place the amps more logically. But if anyone listen to my system right now and not knowing the amps are on the sub, I don't think he would imagine they are actually on the subs. Some time we better stop and not doing more A/B to see how further we could go. My curiosity always cost me a lot of $.