YG introduces the InVincible, 21" all-aluminum 6000W sub!

[LL21]

It looks like the Perlistens do not accept a high-level (speaker level) input. Is this correct?

PS: As far as I can tell only REL and Wilson Benesch accept a high level input.

Perlisten does not take speaker-level / high level inputs. Velodyne DD18+ does but we dont use.

In our case, we cannot use speaker-level anyway since Robert Koda has designed them with the DC floating on the speaker cables. From the Robert Koda manual:

"This amplifier uses DC floating outputs with both the positive speaker terminal and
negative speaker terminal driven. As such you cannot directly connect the amplifier
speaker terminals to active electronics (subwoofer etc). Never let any of the speaker
wires touch the chassis. This will damage your loudspeakers and (may) damage K-
160. Do not allow speaker cables to short."

 

[sbo6]

It looks like the Perlistens do not accept a high-level (speaker level) input. Is this correct?

PS: As far as I can tell only REL and Wilson Benesch accept a high level input.

Correct, same with JL Audio. I ordered and use Jensen (maker of transformers used in the step - downs) high to low output converters model SS-1SR. They are excellent IMO and likely better than the cheapo step downs, certainly what I've seen in many subs. I plan to upgrade the resistors that are used in something even better, one of many smaller projects to get to, time permitting.

 

[sbo6]

wow! It sure does! Thank you. And if I may offer to reciprocate, as an owner of 3 Gryphon amps over the years...Antileon, Colosseum and eventually the Mephisto...some thoughts on what I suspect you are finding now.

The Mephisto is probably one of my all-time favorite amps. It has endless muscle, detail, low noise floor and a sense of depth in tone that I genuinely enjoyed luxuriating in the sense of full foundation music.

Over the 12 years of owning CJ preamps with Gryphon amps, I found myself in an unexpected move to the Robert Koda K15EX...which after such extraordinary success, ended up in another opportunity to move to 'another' pure Class A SS beasts...235 Watts Pure Class A into 4ohms...which was the Robert Koda K160s.

So I have done the before and after with the Mephisto. And understanding its sound character really crystallized AFTER putting the Robert Koda K160s in. There was a surprising upheaval in the sound balance of the system as soon as the Mephisto was swapped out for the Robert Koda K160 amps.

After (no kidding) 6-9 months of listening for hundreds of hours and moving the big Wilsons around, I came to a belief that the Mephisto to my ear has a definite touch of mid-bass heft...a welcome thing for me...i always enjoyed that the foundation it gives to ALL music no matter what album. Particularly memorable, it gave piano solo that rooted-in-the-room all-around-you feel. BUT in light of your desire to recalibrate the Perlistens, Crossover, Main speakers...this element of balance is going to be something that will possibly do 1 of 2 things:

- obligate you to recalibrate that mid-bass heft in order to keep the whole system ruler flat both measurement and perception-wise
- or just say...heck I love this sound...leave everything! I listen to music instruments not measurement instruments! (I suspect the latter in your case, but i also respect you are very adept at measuring)

BTW, this is my two cents not knowing the Audionets you used to use...but surmising based on my own experience and on what I have read about your prior amps. In our case, we went the opposite way...from mid-bass heft to very very purist evenness across the spectrum...so by updating the Wilson speakers a touch, everything snapped back beautifully into place.

Thank you again for taking the time on the Perlistens...definitely a shortlist for us here on our next move which has been firmly in the bass area for a long, long time now.

You are most welcome! And thanks for sharing your experience with the Mephisto and your current Koda amps. Over time, I've become more of a purist, but as you alluded to, having the Xover to "tune" the midbass and bass may allow me to get back to that neutrality, we'll see.


Also, WRT the new Perlisten D8is sub with its external 3KW amp and 8:8" drivers, I believe MSRP is $20K. Fot that price you can buy 2 D215 subs with 4:15" drivers and more controllability. So, to me, it might not be worth it unless you need an in - wall sub. But I could be wrong and it may simply be lower distortion and even better.

 

[LL21]

You are most welcome! And thanks for sharing your experience with the Mephisto and your current Koda amps. Over time, I've become more of a purist, but as you alluded to, having the Xover to "tune" the midbass and bass may allow me to get back to that neutrality, we'll see.


Also, WRT the new Perlisten D8is sub with its external 3KW amp and 8:8" drivers, I believe MSRP is $20K. Fot that price you can buy 2 D215 subs with 4:15" drivers and more controllability. So, to me, it might not be worth it unless you need an in - wall sub. But I could be wrong and it may simply be lower distortion and even better.

Thank you! That is great to know. I think that the only thing (for us) about the D8si might be its proportions which happen to suit our room better. Otherwise, I 100% agree with you on the 2D15s. And at the moment, I would say dual D215s with Wilson Crossover is looking like quite an interesting leading option.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Jensen (maker of transformers used in the step - downs) high to low output converters model SS-1SR.

This is a very interesting device!

Do you think there is any deleterious sonic effect from using this device to send a speaker level signal from an amplifier to the line level input of a subwoofer?

 

[sbo6]

Thank you! That is great to know. I think that the only thing (for us) about the D8si might be its proportions which happen to suit our room better. Otherwise, I 100% agree with you on the 2D15s. And at the moment, I would say dual D215s with Wilson Crossover is looking like quite an interesting leading option.

I may be selling my Wilson crossover if you want it, FYI.

 

[sbo6]

This is a very interesting device!

Do you think there is any deleterious sonic effect from using this device to send a speaker level signal from an amplifier to the line level input of a subwoofer?

Given the quality of the components used I highly doubt it's worse than any sub with high level inputs. and they were fairly inexpensive as I recall, so you can experiment without much $ risk. They look to be $700 a pair. https://www.cs1.net/products/jensen_transformers/SC-2NR.htm#purchase

 

[sbo6]

Why is attenuation by this transformer method sonically better than simply inserting in-line a discrete resistor attenuator in front of the line-level subwoofer input?

Well, first of all, you wouldn't need just 1 resistor as you need to have a voltage divider circuit which takes 2 resistors, and you also need to calculate what resistance values to use not just in terms of dividing the voltage but ensuring a very minimal current load on your amp. Another way to lower the voltage is with a step - down transformer with selectable resistors for power input ratings, which is how Jensen does it. This also provides isolation (see below from their web site) and uses their HQ transformer. The other benefit of these high to low signal devices is adjustability of voltage. Now if you know how much power you'll be loading the circuit with, you can certainly calculate values, but you'd need to DIY this circuit for set values (resistance and wattage) for the resistors.

Verbiage from the site includes:
Model SC-2NR is a two channel "speaker" level to unbalanced "consumer" level converter and ground isolator, designed to accept, in four switch-selectable ranges, speaker drive voltages of 14 Vrms, 25 Vrms, 44 Vrms, or 77 Vrms. These voltages will be developed at full output of power amplifiers rated at 24 W, 75 W, 240 W, or 750 W respectively into 8 Ω loads or rated at 48 W, 150 W, 480 W, or 1,500 W respectively into 4 Ω loads. Input ranges also include 25 V and 70 V lines used in commercial sound systems covering large areas.

Since the speaker inputs are ungrounded, they are especially useful with power amplifiers where both outputs are actively driven and cannot be grounded (these are often referred to as "bridge-mode" or "floating" outputs). The speaker inputs represent a trivial additional load for the driving power amplifiers - maximum input power is 0.08 W, 0.4 W, 1.5 W, and 5.4 W respectively in the four input ranges. In addition, all models provide inherent low-pass filtering to remove ultra-sonic switching artifacts from the outputs of "digital" or "class D" power amplifiers. These artifacts can cause subtle distortions in downstream amplifiers [Deane Jensen and Gary Sokolich, "Spectral Contamination Measurement," AES 85th Convention Preprint 2725,1988}.

The standard versions have dual, or "stereo," outputs that correspond independently to each of the speaker input signals. The SC-2NR output signals will reach 1.75 Vrms (+5 dBV) at maximum rated input - sufficient to drive any known power amplifier with an unbalanced input to full output power. This level represents 15 dB of "headroom" in consumer audio systems where the nominal or "reference level" signal is standardized at - 10 dBV or 0.316 Vrms.

 

[LL21]

I may be selling my Wilson crossover if you want it, FYI.

Interesting! Is it the latest XO and is the Wilson Crossover fully passive (ie, not powered)?

 

[sbo6]

Interesting! Is it the latest XO and is the Wilson Crossover fully passive (ie, not powered)?

Yes, it's the Active XO. It is plugged in so it's powered.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Well, first of all, you wouldn't need just 1 resistor as you need to have a voltage divider circuit which takes 2 resistors, and you also need to calculate what resistance values to use not just in terms of dividing the voltage but ensuring a very minimal current load on your amp. Another way to lower the voltage is with a step - down transformer with selectable resistors for power input ratings, which is how Jensen does it. This also provides isolation (see below from their web site) and uses their HQ transformer. The other benefit of these high to low signal devices is adjustability of voltage. Now if you know how much power you'll be loading the circuit with, you can certainly calculate values, but you'd need to DIY this circuit for set values (resistance and wattage) for the resistors.

Verbiage from the site includes:
Model SC-2NR is a two channel "speaker" level to unbalanced "consumer" level converter and ground isolator, designed to accept, in four switch-selectable ranges, speaker drive voltages of 14 Vrms, 25 Vrms, 44 Vrms, or 77 Vrms. These voltages will be developed at full output of power amplifiers rated at 24 W, 75 W, 240 W, or 750 W respectively into 8 Ω loads or rated at 48 W, 150 W, 480 W, or 1,500 W respectively into 4 Ω loads. Input ranges also include 25 V and 70 V lines used in commercial sound systems covering large areas.

Since the speaker inputs are ungrounded, they are especially useful with power amplifiers where both outputs are actively driven and cannot be grounded (these are often referred to as "bridge-mode" or "floating" outputs). The speaker inputs represent a trivial additional load for the driving power amplifiers - maximum input power is 0.08 W, 0.4 W, 1.5 W, and 5.4 W respectively in the four input ranges. In addition, all models provide inherent low-pass filtering to remove ultra-sonic switching artifacts from the outputs of "digital" or "class D" power amplifiers. These artifacts can cause subtle distortions in downstream amplifiers [Deane Jensen and Gary Sokolich, "Spectral Contamination Measurement," AES 85th Convention Preprint 2725,1988}.

The standard versions have dual, or "stereo," outputs that correspond independently to each of the speaker input signals. The SC-2NR output signals will reach 1.75 Vrms (+5 dBV) at maximum rated input - sufficient to drive any known power amplifier with an unbalanced input to full output power. This level represents 15 dB of "headroom" in consumer audio systems where the nominal or "reference level" signal is standardized at - 10 dBV or 0.316 Vrms.

Sorry, I'm confused now. I thought we were looking at the Jensen SS-1SR?

 

[sbo6]

Sorry, I'm confused now. I thought we were looking at the Jensen SS-1SR?

Yes Ron, I should have clarified that the info I pasted is for the stereo version, I bought the mono versions which better facilitates subs in 2 different locations, as they usually are. I believe they are identical except the stereo = 2 monos in 1 box.

 

[rob]

Nice system there, I believe Lawrence Dickie is a very talented fellow.

Have you considered MiniDSP for bass integration. I know many audiophiles will scoff at implementing such a cheap product, but it is a very powerful device/tool if you are wanting to achieve excellent in room bass response that will blend very well with your mains.

There is a bit (lot)of a learning curve associated with using it to the full potential. I utilised the lazy approach and had help from experts(audio engineers and acoustic experts)with a lot of experience in this area as a way to speed up the process.
The results are very impressive. IMO
The process involved measuring the room raw, trialing many sub locations and re measuring, adding or removing treatment and re measuring until I got the best results I could in the room prior to utilising the DSP. That way you are most of the way there (room dependent) and it’s an easier job for the DSP.
You could use the pre-outs from the pre-amp to either a 2X4HD or go nuts with a Flex HTX. The HTX include the ability to use DIRAC LIVE bass management which works really well as you can emulate a particular target curve in the bass and modify to suit you preference. You can also have 4 profile in the calibration to suit your mood and preferences.
Or do it all manually (as I did) with REW a calibrated mic and measuring listening etc.

Food for thought potentially?

 

[sbo6]

Nice system there, I believe Lawrence Dickie is a very talented fellow.

Have you considered MiniDSP for bass integration. I know many audiophiles will scoff at implementing such a cheap product, but it is a very powerful device/tool if you are wanting to achieve excellent in room bass response that will blend very well with your mains.

There is a bit (lot)of a learning curve associated with using it to the full potential. I utilised the lazy approach and had help from experts(audio engineers and acoustic experts)with a lot of experience in this area as a way to speed up the process.
The results are very impressive. IMO
The process involved measuring the room raw, trialing many sub locations and re measuring, adding or removing treatment and re measuring until I got the best results I could in the room prior to utilising the DSP. That way you are most of the way there (room dependent) and it’s an easier job for the DSP.
You could use the pre-outs from the pre-amp to either a 2X4HD or go nuts with a Flex HTX. The HTX include the ability to use DIRAC LIVE bass management which works really well as you can emulate a particular target curve in the bass and modify to suit you preference. You can also have 4 profile in the calibration to suit your mood and preferences.
Or do it all manually (as I did) with REW a calibrated mic and measuring listening etc.

Food for thought potentially?

I've use DSP years ago and found the more DSP you use, the more deleterious effects it yields with a very high resolution system. So its benefit is overshadowed by problems. For lesser resolving systems like my office it works just fine. I use DEQ with the Perlistens' subs in my main system which is very powerful and I use it as sparingly as possible.

 

[LL21]

Yes, it's the Active XO. It is plugged in so it's powered.

Thank you. We are 240V so probably not worth the brain damage to get one, then add voltage converter and have to think about any implications of quality of sound. There might be none, but as the Brits say, a bit of a faff to do all of that. Just get one here or even get 2nd hand one here.

Nevertheless, very much appreciate all your listening notes and experience which unlike voltage is universal!