YG introduces the InVincible, 21" all-aluminum 6000W sub!

Aug 2, 2013
233
11
18
#61
It's made of plywood

Plywood is a material manufactured from thin layers or "plies" of wood veneer that are glued together with adjacent layers having their wood grain rotated up to 90 degrees to one another. It is an engineered wood from the family of manufactured boards which includes medium-density fibreboard (MDF) and particle board (chipboard).
And plywood is not mdf or particle board, just in the same family, so what point are you trying to make? Confused
 

asiufy

Member Sponsor
Jul 8, 2011
3,311
336
83
San Diego, CA
almaaudio.com
#62
The point being that it's not aluminum, which is what the YG is made of, or a highly customized composite material, like the Wilson's. So your comparison is, frankly, absurd.
 
Likes: Ron Resnick

Ron Resnick

Site Co-Owner, Administrator
Jan 25, 2015
6,664
1,059
113
Beverly Hills, CA
#63
I would bet my left testicle that if it had the name Wilson on the front, and the price tag said 40K dollars on it, that this would be the What's Best official subwoofer and the top 5 wealthiest people on here would have them in their systems.

Let's see if we can get the Theile-Small specifications of the coveted REL driver to see what specs it has for xmax and inductance, then we can calculate how many it would take to equal one, and see how well the cone is controlled in it.

Scepticism, doubt , bias, prejudice, subjectivity, lack of experience all come into play here because no one has actually heard it.
Like the old KEF ad, "Hearing is Believing ", everything else is masturbation.
Or, "Contentment is Destroyed by Comparison"
I think you would lose that bet. It’s good you would have one left.
 

Ron Resnick

Site Co-Owner, Administrator
Jan 25, 2015
6,664
1,059
113
Beverly Hills, CA
#64
I agree, Alex. Plywood, especially birch plywood, can be very strong, but it is not as strong as solid aluminum or the Wilson resin materials.
 

Ron Resnick

Site Co-Owner, Administrator
Jan 25, 2015
6,664
1,059
113
Beverly Hills, CA
#65
16Hz lover, It is the use of solid aluminum and composite resin materials that adds so significantly to the cost of those companies’ products resulting from the efforts to eliminate internal vibration in those cabinets.
 

LL21

Well-Known Member
Dec 26, 2010
10,929
140
63
#66
The Gryphon bass towers are rated at -3dB 16Hz. So, in theory, there is absolutely no need for any additional low-frequency reinforcement.

Yet, I have heard the subtle sonic benefit of adding subwoofers to a system with large woofer towers similar to the Gryphon bass towers.

We know of a Rockport Arrakis owner who uses stereo subwoofers.

I would not say “no” to a pair of Wilson Master Chronosonic subwoofers.
I have heard the Rockport Arrakis and agreed with a sensational sound that I heard that day...that I would still add subs (really great ones) because there is an all-out sense of space that captures the entire room volume which great subs with great integration can do exceedingly well.
 

LL21

Well-Known Member
Dec 26, 2010
10,929
140
63
#67
below 15Hz - an infrasonic concept - to reproduce additional stage, spacial and subharmonic information
Agree. Frankly, even the horsepower to drive at 20-35hz. There is producing that range...and producing that range with full dynamic and micro dynamic capability, EASE/effortlessness...and of course full power when the system is turned up.
 
May 30, 2010
15,499
710
113
Portugal
#68
(...) Again if your audio system is strictly for recordings, and you don't listen to pipe organ recordings, then most people will be satisfied. But if your system also does home theater duty, then you absolutely need a sub that will play into the single digits. If I ever get the privilege of coming to audition your system, I WILL bottom out your woofers in your main speakers :)
Thanks for being so clear - although I appreciate pipe organ life recitals, I am part of the population that does not listen to pipe organ recordings at home. My main interest is stereo not home theater.
 
May 30, 2010
15,499
710
113
Portugal
#69
I agree, Alex. Plywood, especially birch plywood, can be very strong, but it is not as strong as solid aluminum or the Wilson resin materials.
It is not the question of being strong, it is the question of mechanical behavior (absorption, reflection and relaxation of materials) along the complete audio spectra. Humans are very poor at evaluating materials tapping them, adequate instruments and techniques are needed to characterize them. As expected, manufacturers will show us just the data that supports their choices over other preferred materials ...

A good friend owned two giant 24" Hartley subs built to Mark Levinson HQD specifications. Double giant box made of a 1" special custom made plywood with a large gap of a specific mix of sand, about 1000 lbs. I followed its building and I have never seen such an apparently inert box. They sounded great in a 70m2 room.
 

thedudeabides

Well-Known Member
Jan 16, 2011
1,288
50
48
Alto, NM
#70
It never ceases to amaze me at how many people think that subwoofers are only supposed to operate from 20-60 hz. The word subwoofer, means SUB sonic ( below 20hz), and most subs today especially the ones for consumer use fail miserably below 20hz, having to resort to cutting back the travel of the driver to prevent bottoming like all servo driven subs operate. The area they need to be most effective is where they cut the output back, now that's absurd, kind of defeats the purpose.
I think you're a bit out of touch with reality, meaning the vast majority of folks who listen to music and have a sub or two in their music (non HT) system. I have a REL T7i (which effectively cuts out below 30hz) with my Joseph Audio Pulsars. The increase in palpability and musical "foundation" with the sub is enormous and impacts the music across the entire frequency range. Absent some organ recordings, there simply is not a lot of recorded material that has much information below 30hz.

Suffice to say, I think the last sentence in your above post is simply not defensible and very hyperbolic.

16hz at 100db? Great for wall / floor rattling not to mention pissing off your neighbors.
 

Ron Resnick

Site Co-Owner, Administrator
Jan 25, 2015
6,664
1,059
113
Beverly Hills, CA
#71
I personally think there is some spatial or ambient soundstage or venue information well below 20Hz. I also think there may be some phase information below 20Hz which we cannot hear directly, just like there is phase information above 18kHz which we cannot hear directly but which super-tweeters reproduce.
 

Robh3606

Active Member
Aug 25, 2010
1,003
22
38
Destiny
#72
"This is a very interesting design, Alex. A 21” diameter driver is very impressive! (LL21 are you seeing this?)

What is the thinking behind the drivers facing each other but slightly offset? Won’t this result in some cancellation?"

Of course not look up mutual coupling. In that kind of arrangement at those frequencies you get an addition 3db so the net effect is a 6bd increase in output so you have just gained 6db which drops your power input requirements to 1/4 of the power you would need with a single driver so a win win all around. Used on PRO stuff all the time.

"I personally think there is some spatial or ambient soundstage or venue information well below 20Hz."

I agree there is some info down low there but there is a limit on how low. You can also get a lot of HVAC noise down there heavy trucks and subway NYC.

Rob :)
 
Last edited:

LL21

Well-Known Member
Dec 26, 2010
10,929
140
63
#73
I personally think there is some spatial or ambient soundstage or venue information well below 20Hz.
Agree with this for sure.

...I also think there may be some phase information below 20Hz which we cannot hear directly, just like there is phase information above 18kHz which we cannot hear directly but which super-tweeters reproduce.
Interesting...did not fully appreciate this.
 

LL21

Well-Known Member
Dec 26, 2010
10,929
140
63
#74
"This is a very interesting design, Alex. A 21” diameter driver is very impressive! (LL21 are you seeing this?)

What is the thinking behind the drivers facing each other but slightly offset? Won’t this result in some cancellation?"

Of course not look up mutual coupling. In that kind of arrangement at those frequencies you get an addition 3db so the net effect is a 6bd increase in output so you have just gained 6db which drops your power input requirements to 1/4 of the power you would need with a single driver so a win win all around. Used on PRO stuff all the time.

"I personally think there is some spatial or ambient soundstage or venue information well below 20Hz."

I agree there is some info down low there but there is a limit on how low. You can also get a lot of HVAC noise down there heavy trucks and subway NYC.

Rob :)
Hey Rob, I am DEFINITELY seeing this! I read up a bit, and it seems that you can configure this as 1 cone...upward facing, or 1 cone downward facing...there does not seem to be a suggestion of a difference in quality either way. And then there is upward and downward facing for the full effect. Optimized by using a 230V outlet if you can (6000 watts) otherwise 3000 watts.
 

Blackmorec

Active Member
Feb 1, 2019
89
110
33
66
#75
Kinda reminds me of the famous Fabio Stereophile interview where he claimed that his systems bass extension made his guests feel nauseous.

The 2 woofers facing each other are played in phase, creating a horn-like acoustic impedance which improves perceived speed, dynamics and especially micro-dynamics and efficiency. The tilt will create some directionality, making them easier to position relative to walls.

Knowing YG, they are more about music that sonic fireworks....the design promises tremendous extension (obviously) but also will likely produce bass with tremendous sonic ease and detail, given that the cones will hardly need to move to create substantial output. I for one would love to have a room and budget capable of integrating something like these. I could imagine they’d add value to pretty much any recording, not just low church organ fundamentals.
 

LL21

Well-Known Member
Dec 26, 2010
10,929
140
63
#76
Very interesting insights, Blackmorec! Thank you.
 

Mark Seaton

WBF Technical Expert (Speaker & Acoustics)
May 21, 2010
332
25
28
43
Chicago, IL
www.seatonsound.net
#77
"This is a very interesting design, Alex. A 21” diameter driver is very impressive! (LL21 are you seeing this?)

What is the thinking behind the drivers facing each other but slightly offset? Won’t this result in some cancellation?"

Of course not look up mutual coupling. In that kind of arrangement at those frequencies you get an addition 3db so the net effect is a 6bd increase in output so you have just gained 6db which drops your power input requirements to 1/4 of the power you would need with a single driver so a win win all around. Used on PRO stuff all the time.

"I personally think there is some spatial or ambient soundstage or venue information well below 20Hz."

I agree there is some info down low there but there is a limit on how low. You can also get a lot of HVAC noise down there heavy trucks and subway NYC.

Rob :)
Kinda reminds me of the famous Fabio Stereophile interview where he claimed that his systems bass extension made his guests feel nauseous.

The 2 woofers facing each other are played in phase, creating a horn-like acoustic impedance which improves perceived speed, dynamics and especially micro-dynamics and efficiency. The tilt will create some directionality, making them easier to position relative to walls.

Knowing YG, they are more about music that sonic fireworks....the design promises tremendous extension (obviously) but also will likely produce bass with tremendous sonic ease and detail, given that the cones will hardly need to move to create substantial output. I for one would love to have a room and budget capable of integrating something like these. I could imagine they’d add value to pretty much any recording, not just low church organ fundamentals.
Nice to see some of the high tech, large diameter woofers out there adapted for the more exotic builders out there. It's also amusing to see the amplifier, which is one of the most robust bass amplifiers available, especially for anything in the realm of 6000W. The US Made, Class D amplifier module is ironically a very close sibling of the 4000W amplifier 16Hz Lover pointed to, of course assembled on/to the very impressive aluminum work YG is known for. If anyone follows the direct subwoofer market they'll recognize how similar the amp is to what I and others use.

The one woofer firing up or two woofers firing at each other has no real impact on the behavior, but the design does allow the woofer to be elevated in the room, and the two in the middle could make for a different interaction with the room than if placed on the floor in the same footprint. The angle certainly looks cool, lets you see the woofer more easily, and lets owners "feel better" about the woofers aiming at the listener. In reality you could spin it around and see zero difference below 100Hz for any way the opening is aimed.

It is nice to see a few more subwoofers of real substance cropping up in the more exotic end of the hi-fi market.
 

cjfrbw

Well-Known Member
Apr 20, 2010
2,398
170
63
Pleasanton, CA
#78
Many years ago I attended the rotary subwoofer demo at Tony's home (tzucc? handle) in Saratoga. These provide huge energies to 0 Hz. He said when it was first vented outside, his neighbors from well over a couple of acres away thought there was an earthquake. He had to vent it differently because of this.

His audio system was in a converted basement under his garage, and when I was in the garage above it, I could feel the concrete heaving.

There must be instinctive pathways in the body responding to low frequency information. They had a questionairre by way of research, and at least half the guys who experienced the sub-15 Hz reported nausea and uncomfortable groin sensation.

There does appear to be low frequency autonomic responses evoked by the lower Hz. Whether this is actually desirable or not in an audio system is another question.
 

asiufy

Member Sponsor
Jul 8, 2011
3,311
336
83
San Diego, CA
almaaudio.com
#79
Thought I'd post this cool video that YG produced, presenting the InVincible's strenghts


YG InVincible video
 

RogerD

Well-Known Member
May 23, 2010
3,479
122
63
BiggestLittleCity
#80

About us

  • What’s Best Forum is THE forum for high end audio, product reviews, advice and sharing experiences on the best of everything else. A place where audiophiles and audio companies discuss existing and new audio products, music servers, music streamers and computer audio, digital to audio convertors (DACS), turntables, phono stages, cartridges, reel to reel, speakers, headphones, tube amplifiers and solid state amplification. Founded in 2010 What's Best Forum invites intelligent and courteous people of all interests and backgrounds to describe and discuss the best of everything. From beginners to life-long hobbyists to industry professionals we enjoy learning about new things and meeting new people and participating in spirited debates.

Quick Navigation

User Menu

Steve Williams
Site Founder | Site Owner | Administrator
Ron Resnick
Site Co-Owner | Administrator
Julian (The Fixer)
Website Build | Marketing Managersing