Would you Pay $250 to Hear Specific Equipment at a Dealer?
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Sorry don't agree with you on this one. For one to show up on the used market someone has to purchase it new. When i visit a dealer I'm expecting Product AND Service.
When I purchase gear, if the dealer provides poor service I go elsewhere. Of course the product has to be shine as well.
I would agree with you except that in many cases quality dealers that will loan you gear, take the time to do proper setup and then take care of you after the sale simply don't exist in a given area for the products that we are interested in. In that case if I'm not going to get the service anyway then the used market is appealing.
George
Some dealers are a class act and give the same level of service to those whom they will make a sale to and others whom they won’t! Our dealer is such a person - Tony and Ellington HiFi. He travels 2 hours “one way“ to demo items for us. He believes in his products and there is no charge for his service. He’s an awesome dealer! We couldn't be more satisfied with Tony’s level of service!
Wanting the service and willing to pay for the service are two completely different things. While many here may fall under the umbrella of understanding that value, most clients don’t. Every single dealer I know has these clients that take up all their time and feel no remorse about going to someone else to buy for 5% less.
As a dealer, they don’t know which camp you fall into. In this dealers mind, it shows a commitment to him if you are willing to pay for a demo, which in some cases does take hours to set up properly.
There is another side to every story. For clarity, I am not defending nor reprimanding this dealer. Given conversations I’ve had, I see the sensibility in it for the dealer and it seems to serve him well. I do not know who this dealer is.
As a dealer, they don’t know which camp you fall into. In this dealers mind, it shows a commitment to him if you are willing to pay for a demo, which in some cases does take hours to set up properly.
There is another side to every story. For clarity, I am not defending nor reprimanding this dealer. Given conversations I’ve had, I see the sensibility in it for the dealer and it seems to serve him well. I do not know who this dealer is.
It is a tough question because there are many factors involved. The simple answer is I would not pay a dime to go to a dealers showroom to listen to equipment.
I have actually had dealers tell me they would refund my flight, lodging, and food if I visited their location and eventually purchased equipment. That is a real dealer in mind. But they also had a specific set of equipment that I already was aware of and had an interest in. If I was just looking to see what is out there no way.
The dilemma is most markets have limited dealers and consequently limited equipment you can listen to. In these cases, my local dealers really try to sell you on what they carry and bad mouth other products you may have an interest in. The sad news is I do not buy from my local dealer because of this very reason. I am very open to experimenting with equipment. A lot of research goes into it. Multiple brands are considered. I have purchased equipment from all around the world and the USA.
As audiophiles, we tend to always be looking for that next great component. As a result, we have a tendency to buy and sell a lot. Just because I do not buy from a dealer the first time does not mean I won't go back to that dealer in the future. If he/she treats me well, is knowledgeable, and provides me with a fair deal, I will always go back to at least give that dealer another chance. A dealer who wanted to charge me to listen just to get in the door starts me off on the wrong foot so I doubt I could establish a relationship with that dealer.
I have actually had dealers tell me they would refund my flight, lodging, and food if I visited their location and eventually purchased equipment. That is a real dealer in mind. But they also had a specific set of equipment that I already was aware of and had an interest in. If I was just looking to see what is out there no way.
The dilemma is most markets have limited dealers and consequently limited equipment you can listen to. In these cases, my local dealers really try to sell you on what they carry and bad mouth other products you may have an interest in. The sad news is I do not buy from my local dealer because of this very reason. I am very open to experimenting with equipment. A lot of research goes into it. Multiple brands are considered. I have purchased equipment from all around the world and the USA.
As audiophiles, we tend to always be looking for that next great component. As a result, we have a tendency to buy and sell a lot. Just because I do not buy from a dealer the first time does not mean I won't go back to that dealer in the future. If he/she treats me well, is knowledgeable, and provides me with a fair deal, I will always go back to at least give that dealer another chance. A dealer who wanted to charge me to listen just to get in the door starts me off on the wrong foot so I doubt I could establish a relationship with that dealer.
I'm a dealer and I will really try my best to be objective here.
If a dealer charges a demo fee today, it is so uncommon that a lot of questions get raised. Mainly WHY? Are you getting too many appointment requests that you need to purposely slow down demand so as to match your available time? Mmmmmm. It's possible I guess but nah I highly doubt it. The tire kicking angle put forth in earlier threads looks interesting. Maybe they're fed up with guys coming in and the going off to save a few hundred bucks buying online. I can't blame them for that.
As a dealer and I am getting a lot of auditions but very small sales, that is scary. I'm looking to add sales not maintain my sales and cutting auditions because hey it doesn't matter anyway. They like, they buy. Pay me 250 for schlepping, shuffling around my display, tuning it then putting the other display back in. Kinda makes sense in that perspective too. The problem is what if the low sales has NOTHING to do with the gear?
Paranoia sets in. You're literally looking under pebbles. Am I set up right? Are my communication skills shot? What vibe am I giving off? Does my breath stink. LOL. Whatever it is that $%^&$ needs to be figured out.
If I were to charge $250 dollars, I'm looking at that as a TICKET. I had better put one damn hell of a show to earn it. If I can't guarantee entertainment I should be prepared to give something else back. I'm thinking that $250 is ante for me to open up more serious negotiations and hopefully a long lasting relationship where all sides are happy.
I still wouldn't charge it though. For me sharing fun is still a big part of why I got in to this with my partners in the first place. We've never been in any position that made us think of this much less contemplate it save this theoretical exercise of ours.
If a dealer charges a demo fee today, it is so uncommon that a lot of questions get raised. Mainly WHY? Are you getting too many appointment requests that you need to purposely slow down demand so as to match your available time? Mmmmmm. It's possible I guess but nah I highly doubt it. The tire kicking angle put forth in earlier threads looks interesting. Maybe they're fed up with guys coming in and the going off to save a few hundred bucks buying online. I can't blame them for that.
As a dealer and I am getting a lot of auditions but very small sales, that is scary. I'm looking to add sales not maintain my sales and cutting auditions because hey it doesn't matter anyway. They like, they buy. Pay me 250 for schlepping, shuffling around my display, tuning it then putting the other display back in. Kinda makes sense in that perspective too. The problem is what if the low sales has NOTHING to do with the gear?
Paranoia sets in. You're literally looking under pebbles. Am I set up right? Are my communication skills shot? What vibe am I giving off? Does my breath stink. LOL. Whatever it is that $%^&$ needs to be figured out.
If I were to charge $250 dollars, I'm looking at that as a TICKET. I had better put one damn hell of a show to earn it. If I can't guarantee entertainment I should be prepared to give something else back. I'm thinking that $250 is ante for me to open up more serious negotiations and hopefully a long lasting relationship where all sides are happy.
I still wouldn't charge it though. For me sharing fun is still a big part of why I got in to this with my partners in the first place. We've never been in any position that made us think of this much less contemplate it save this theoretical exercise of ours.
@JackD201 yours is a reasonable approach and reply above. Thanks for that.
I would add that IMO it also depends on what level of gear a dealer is selling. More basic components, widely available, including online, become a commodity, so it sorts for customers looking in that range.
IMO, they would be more likely to shop for price, and since it's widely available, often choose based on price. I wouldn't want to be in that biz in any industry.
What I would be hoping for (and have found) is relationship-based sales. And the relationship has two sides. It's also up to me to convey to the dealer that I am serious and glad to do business with him/her if I like the product and we come to terms.
I did once tell a local dealer I would not pay 350 bucks for him to deliver demo speakers to my house, as I had done many thousands of dollars of biz with him previously. I was put off that he brought it up, as I had a 100% demo/purchase record with him on maybe 5 or 6 components over 2-3 years.
But I paid an out of town dealer 350 bucks to deliver/demo 65 miles one-way. That seemed reasonable. I bought the speakers and set the deal so that if I didn't love them in my place, they would take them back, refund me in full, but keep the 350. Seemed reasonable. Worked out great. Guess which dealer I use now?
I would add that IMO it also depends on what level of gear a dealer is selling. More basic components, widely available, including online, become a commodity, so it sorts for customers looking in that range.
IMO, they would be more likely to shop for price, and since it's widely available, often choose based on price. I wouldn't want to be in that biz in any industry.
What I would be hoping for (and have found) is relationship-based sales. And the relationship has two sides. It's also up to me to convey to the dealer that I am serious and glad to do business with him/her if I like the product and we come to terms.
I did once tell a local dealer I would not pay 350 bucks for him to deliver demo speakers to my house, as I had done many thousands of dollars of biz with him previously. I was put off that he brought it up, as I had a 100% demo/purchase record with him on maybe 5 or 6 components over 2-3 years.
But I paid an out of town dealer 350 bucks to deliver/demo 65 miles one-way. That seemed reasonable. I bought the speakers and set the deal so that if I didn't love them in my place, they would take them back, refund me in full, but keep the 350. Seemed reasonable. Worked out great. Guess which dealer I use now?
i can see where in some very specific situations, whether a location with unusual amounts of tire-kicking foot traffic, or setting up particular gear, that it could be ok to charge a demo fee based on experience. any time a dealer has to bring gear to a customer then this must be negotiable. maybe one room is ultra high end and casual tire kickers are dominating the system at busy times some sort of 'pay to play' might be rationalized.
for myself personally, my wife has for years encouraged me to charge visitors to listen. it's now a joke between us. obviously i love to have visitors and it's something i want to happen. and it's not my business, it's just a hobby.
in the car business, we have specific products we won't allow test drives with. it's rare. if we have a high performance used car that most of our crew is not knowledgeable about, we need to protect them from being exposed to being hurt. we can't know the intensions or skill sets of buyers. when we have a Civic Type 'R' in stock for sale, which is very, very rare, you have to buy it to drive it. no test drives. mostly just common sense. you don't hand someone a loaded gun, either. not sure that is relevant to this subject, but when you have commissioned salespeople, over time you have to have rules to respect their time, and also protect the goods and access too.
i do recognize that it's natural for most people to be offended by any sort of 'pay to play'. and no one is going to change their minds. i've never been faced with it, but my dealer interactions are mostly people i personally know.
my opinion is it's better to have 'appointment only' for gear you are considering charging to listen to. that would be less offensive as a policy and would attain the same result. you could still verbally offer a fee if you did not consider them serious.
for myself personally, my wife has for years encouraged me to charge visitors to listen. it's now a joke between us. obviously i love to have visitors and it's something i want to happen. and it's not my business, it's just a hobby.
in the car business, we have specific products we won't allow test drives with. it's rare. if we have a high performance used car that most of our crew is not knowledgeable about, we need to protect them from being exposed to being hurt. we can't know the intensions or skill sets of buyers. when we have a Civic Type 'R' in stock for sale, which is very, very rare, you have to buy it to drive it. no test drives. mostly just common sense. you don't hand someone a loaded gun, either. not sure that is relevant to this subject, but when you have commissioned salespeople, over time you have to have rules to respect their time, and also protect the goods and access too.
i do recognize that it's natural for most people to be offended by any sort of 'pay to play'. and no one is going to change their minds. i've never been faced with it, but my dealer interactions are mostly people i personally know.
my opinion is it's better to have 'appointment only' for gear you are considering charging to listen to. that would be less offensive as a policy and would attain the same result. you could still verbally offer a fee if you did not consider them serious.
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...awesome audio dudes there. Excellent selection. Highly recommended. Buffalo, NY.
I think they have Wilson Alex V on display
Too bad all the old Rochester stores are gone...
I think they have Wilson Alex V on demo which I really would like to hear...It's a 2.5 hour drive.
Too bad all the old Rochester stores are gone...
If the demo required moving large speakers, amps and sources, and if the dealer were going to give me his undivided attention for an hour or two, and if the fee were going to be applied to my purchase, I’d probably agree to pay it. It’s a small additional cost in the acquisition of a near six figure system, and my willingness to pay would show my own commitment to the activity. It would be modest tuition to learn about a specific proposed system.
Naturally I’d expect a suitable chair, proper speaker placement, well chosen interconnects and cables … and I’d want to control the sources.
Over the course of the last two months I have dropped in at my local dealer weekly, and commented that “I’d sure like to hear those Wilson subwoofers on the model of Wilson speakers I bought from you last year. If you get a chance to set it up, call me and I’ll quickly come in to audition them.” Every time I leave, he falls over himself to assure me that he’ll set it up and call within a few days. It’s embarrassing. I’d rather pay him $250 for an appointment and get it done. He’s going to be irked if I buy from another dealer out of state, if he gives me the demo first, but it will be his own fault.
Naturally I’d expect a suitable chair, proper speaker placement, well chosen interconnects and cables … and I’d want to control the sources.
Over the course of the last two months I have dropped in at my local dealer weekly, and commented that “I’d sure like to hear those Wilson subwoofers on the model of Wilson speakers I bought from you last year. If you get a chance to set it up, call me and I’ll quickly come in to audition them.” Every time I leave, he falls over himself to assure me that he’ll set it up and call within a few days. It’s embarrassing. I’d rather pay him $250 for an appointment and get it done. He’s going to be irked if I buy from another dealer out of state, if he gives me the demo first, but it will be his own fault.
I ran a small shop out of my home 40 years ago. It was by appointment only. I would never have charged for a demo, but I sure put up with a lot of tire kickers.
“I want to hear the VPI HW19 mk2 with Souther Triquartz and Clearaudio Veritas.”
OK, come on over.
After cleaning (on the HW17) and listening to 8 sides of the customers choosing, and after killing my whole afternoon….
“Would you take 50% of retail for that setup?”
I was not cut out to be a retailer as a side hustle. At that point I decided that a good dealer earns his money.
Speaking of good dealers, Larry Marcus and family are celebrating their 25 years of ownership of Paragon Sight and Sound in Ann Arbor this weekend. Great folks. Lots of great product lines. Excellent attention to demos. I highly recommend them, and especially Richard Marcus’s collection of preowned goodies from companies like Wilson, dCS, ARC, Transparent and others.
“I want to hear the VPI HW19 mk2 with Souther Triquartz and Clearaudio Veritas.”
OK, come on over.
After cleaning (on the HW17) and listening to 8 sides of the customers choosing, and after killing my whole afternoon….
“Would you take 50% of retail for that setup?”
I was not cut out to be a retailer as a side hustle. At that point I decided that a good dealer earns his money.
Speaking of good dealers, Larry Marcus and family are celebrating their 25 years of ownership of Paragon Sight and Sound in Ann Arbor this weekend. Great folks. Lots of great product lines. Excellent attention to demos. I highly recommend them, and especially Richard Marcus’s collection of preowned goodies from companies like Wilson, dCS, ARC, Transparent and others.
I learned a cool reply when haggling in a the great bazaar in Istanbul. The gentleman said "Please, you can hurt me but please don't kill me" LOL
I have the permission to use his line in perpetuity LOL
@Another Johnson, those are great posts and as a dealer I appreciate both views you have on the matter. Your latest response represents the big issue.
Some dealers I know won't charge for up front time investments, but when it comes time to purchase an item and they begin negotiating, that time gets cataloged so the client knows how much how much the dealer really has invested in that purchase. When someone is buying a $5,000 item and realize the dealer has invested 20+ hours between phone calls, emails, and demonstrations, it changes their perspective some. Most dealers aren't wanting to ilk out as much profit as they can - they just want to make an honest wage off their expertise and investments made so a client has the ability to have a good demo.
Some dealers I know won't charge for up front time investments, but when it comes time to purchase an item and they begin negotiating, that time gets cataloged so the client knows how much how much the dealer really has invested in that purchase. When someone is buying a $5,000 item and realize the dealer has invested 20+ hours between phone calls, emails, and demonstrations, it changes their perspective some. Most dealers aren't wanting to ilk out as much profit as they can - they just want to make an honest wage off their expertise and investments made so a client has the ability to have a good demo.
Real estate agents often earn outrageous commissions for selling a home, especially if the home is desirable and sells quickly. I’ve always assumed that these outrageous commissions are paying for all the houses the agent DIDN’T sell or didn’t buy. Some will work with clients for months and months, host endless open houses (a common source of weekend entertainment for tire kickers) and see no compensation. Ultimately they drop the listing and let another agent have a shot. But they certainly don’t send an invoice to the homeowner on the way out. And when acting for buyers, how many of those buyers have no issue with seeing dozens of homes before they buy?
The markups on high-end audio equipment are usually substantial. After all, these are luxury items. When a dealer DOES sell a six-figure set of speakers, I consider his profit fair, since it helps pay for all the speakers he DIDN’T sell.
That’s why I won’t pay for a demo.
The markups on high-end audio equipment are usually substantial. After all, these are luxury items. When a dealer DOES sell a six-figure set of speakers, I consider his profit fair, since it helps pay for all the speakers he DIDN’T sell.
That’s why I won’t pay for a demo.
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That analogy works on some levels, but it fails on others, at least in the markets where I have bought and sold real estate.
Maybe contracts are different elsewhere, but in the 6 markets where I have been on one side of the table or the other at closing, the realtor’s buyercontracts have included the clause
“buyer agrees to pay my commission if buyer buys a property that I introduced him to within 6 months after the end of our agreement.”
Buyer’s contracts were created for the very problem discussed here.
Other failures of the analogy are that the store owner has inventory carrying costs, has to provide a pleasing environment to show the inventory, is involved in service after the sale, provides expertise on synergistic pairings, etc.
The Realtor typically has you sign away all pretenses that he or she knows anything about anything related to the sale.
None of this is to suggest that Realtors have it easy. The poor shmoe who ferries you around splits the commission with the seller’s firm, and then the two agents have to further split their share with their brokers. A 6% real estate commission very quickly becomes 1.5% or less after all the sharks have been fed.
So on that level, both realtor and dealer are unappreciated, and their real compensation is likely to be smaller than it looks.
I am neither a dealer or a realtor. I couldn’t graciously or gracefully interact with typical customers. I try very hard to be atypical when I’m on the buying side. Fair is fair, and at the end of the day I’d like both buyer and seller to feel good about the deal.
Maybe contracts are different elsewhere, but in the 6 markets where I have been on one side of the table or the other at closing, the realtor’s buyercontracts have included the clause
“buyer agrees to pay my commission if buyer buys a property that I introduced him to within 6 months after the end of our agreement.”
Buyer’s contracts were created for the very problem discussed here.
Other failures of the analogy are that the store owner has inventory carrying costs, has to provide a pleasing environment to show the inventory, is involved in service after the sale, provides expertise on synergistic pairings, etc.
The Realtor typically has you sign away all pretenses that he or she knows anything about anything related to the sale.
None of this is to suggest that Realtors have it easy. The poor shmoe who ferries you around splits the commission with the seller’s firm, and then the two agents have to further split their share with their brokers. A 6% real estate commission very quickly becomes 1.5% or less after all the sharks have been fed.
So on that level, both realtor and dealer are unappreciated, and their real compensation is likely to be smaller than it looks.
I am neither a dealer or a realtor. I couldn’t graciously or gracefully interact with typical customers. I try very hard to be atypical when I’m on the buying side. Fair is fair, and at the end of the day I’d like both buyer and seller to feel good about the deal.
Can the $250 deposit be applied to anything in the store? If yes, then I would pay for a demo and if the demo did not materialize into a sale of said products, I would simple buy $250 worth of albums, accessories, software etc. When I visit a B&M and listen to some equipment, I always buy a small item (usually an album or 2) as a little thank you for their time.
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