Wilson Audio Subwoofer Placement

[sbo6]

One degree of phase matters quite a bit. My setup of my clients and my own have proven that.

Can you please let me know how you've proven that, other than changing it one degree, sitting down and listening and saying, yea, I hear it?

 

[sbo6]

As so one doing setups, I rely on my own critical listening skills and room measurements. But measurements, even those in acoustics, don’t tell you the whole story.

Understood, same as most here. So no A B A testing. I'd love to see the FR and RT60 with 2 stacks of subs exacerbating room modes next to the mains.

 

[sbo6]

I’m sharing what has worked for my own professional setups with respect to Wilson. In this case, I would say the phase degrees work in most rooms. For example, my room is 15 x 20 but my client Ian’s room is a bit larger. The setup was effectively the same for Ian but we had to put the subs on the inside due to a home theater room along the left side.

Effective compared to what?

I don't mean to be picking but it's like saying I put a drop of dressing on my salad and it's better than no dressing.

 

[sbnx]

Understood, same as most here. So no A B A testing. I'd love to see the FR and RT60 with 2 stacks of subs exacerbating room modes next to the mains.

So you propose that you are going to tell someone what something sounds like by using your eyes to look at a graph? You might want to pause and consider how ludicrous that is. While the graph will provide some information it is certainly not definitive. The way the human brain interprets sound waves is far more complex than the output of REW can reveal.

 

[sbnx]

Effective compared to what?

I don't mean to be picking but it's like saying I put a drop of dressing on my salad and it's better than no dressing.

How does the drop of dressing pertain to subwoofers?

Lee is talking about the same speaker and the same subwoofer placed in the same position relative to the speaker in different rooms. I would expect the phase/group delay to be very similar in various rooms. Especially considering most people are putting the speaker and sub less than 6-8 feet of the front wall.

Although 6 degrees seems small, but if that is what worked then great. It is pretty easy to get in the ballpark, even by ear. If you are crossed over at 30Hz (for example) then play a 30Hz test tone. You are looking for the position on the phase knob with the least cancelation. Again, to get in the ballpark. Of course, your ballpark is pretty big as you claim +/- 5 degrees is plenty close.

 

[sbo6]

So you propose that you are going to tell someone what something sounds like by using your eyes to look at a graph? You might want to pause and consider how ludicrous that is. While the graph will provide some information it is certainly not definitive. The way the human brain interprets sound waves is far more complex than the output of REW can reveal.

I would look at the data where you can make a general assessment based on peaks, dips and the Q of each along with the slope of the graph across the frequency spectrum. The graphs provide strong guidance as to the sound, final adjustments as always should be done via ear and dialed to your preference. This has been my stance and guidance in any subwoofer integration topic. Don't assume.

 

[sbo6]

How does the drop of dressing pertain to subwoofers?

Lee is talking about the same speaker and the same subwoofer placed in the same position relative to the speaker in different rooms. I would expect the phase/group delay to be very similar in various rooms. Especially considering most people are putting the speaker and sub less than 6-8 feet of the front wall.

Although 6 degrees seems small, but if that is what worked then great. It is pretty easy to get in the ballpark, even by ear. If you are crossed over at 30Hz (for example) then play a 30Hz test tone. You are looking for the position on the phase knob with the least cancelation. Again, to get in the ballpark. Of course, your ballpark is pretty big as you claim +/- 5 degrees is plenty close.

The analogy: a small simple benefit in and of itself may be minimal compared to what can be achieved (i.e: dressing over the entire salad), but you'll never know until you try (i.e.: move subs to other locations like Toole recommended).

Also, you're wrong in assuming sub phase "dialed in" = all frequencies relative to mains is optimal, it's not, and rarely is. This is a misnomer. I'd be happy to share data that backs this reality.

It's all about compromises and finding the best sub(s) phase for the best response (least dips and peaks, reduction in peak/dip Q) along with XO frequency, slope, level and carefully employed parametric EQ if necessary. There is no one phase setting that integrates all frequencies at the listening spot. The room and modes matter much more than having a sub next to a main speaker.

 

[Lee]

so you can tell between say 99 and 100 degree phase shift?

Absolutely! On my Lokes you can hear the difference by a degree because the click track becomes a solid thud and even moreso you hear the perfect time alignment with the main speakers, in my case the Alexia Vs and in the case of my client Ian, the Sasha Vs.

In my setup the difference between 6 and 7 degrees was noticeable, between 6 and 9 even more noticeable.

 

[Lee]

How does the drop of dressing pertain to subwoofers?

Lee is talking about the same speaker and the same subwoofer placed in the same position relative to the speaker in different rooms. I would expect the phase/group delay to be very similar in various rooms. Especially considering most people are putting the speaker and sub less than 6-8 feet of the front wall.

Although 6 degrees seems small, but if that is what worked then great. It is pretty easy to get in the ballpark, even by ear. If you are crossed over at 30Hz (for example) then play a 30Hz test tone. You are looking for the position on the phase knob with the least cancelation. Again, to get in the ballpark. Of course, your ballpark is pretty big as you claim +/- 5 degrees is plenty close.

In my system and my client Ian’s system +/- of five degrees is way too wide for proper alignment with the main speakers.

 

[Lee]

Effective compared to what?

I don't mean to be picking but it's like saying I put a drop of dressing on my salad and it's better than no dressing.

I’m not sure why you are not trusting my ears or Ian’s. It was obvious to us both. What’s going to satisfy you? A measurement? Not sure what measurement would beat our ears with a 40hz pulse track.

I also don’t think there is a measurement that would capture what we heard moving the subs around to be the right placement in the room.

 

[Lee]

The analogy: a small simple benefit in and of itself may be minimal compared to what can be achieved (i.e: dressing over the entire salad), but you'll never know until you try (i.e.: move subs to other locations like Toole recommended).

Also, you're wrong in assuming sub phase "dialed in" = all frequencies relative to mains is optimal, it's not, and rarely is. This is a misnomer. I'd be happy to share data that backs this reality.

It's all about compromises and finding the best sub(s) phase for the best response (least dips and peaks, reduction in peak/dip Q) along with XO frequency, slope, level and carefully employed parametric EQ if necessary. There is no one phase setting that integrates all frequencies at the listening spot. The room and modes matter much more than having a sub next to a main speaker.

The last paragraph is just not true based on my setups involving Wilson. It’s very clear when the optimal phase degree is found that allows the subs to work in alignment with the main speakers. The bass feels natural and the subs are fully of one piece with the mains as if the Alexias just had an extra woofer. It is a full, textured bass. Jim Smith’s Brian Bromberg bass test is incredibly lifelike with incredible presence. It’s like Brian is in the room.

 

[sbo6]

I’m not sure why you are not trusting my ears or Ian’s. It was obvious to us both. What’s going to satisfy you? A measurement? Not sure what measurement would beat our ears with a 40hz pulse track.

I also don’t think there is a measurement that would capture what we heard moving the subs around to be the right placement in the room.

What would convince me? Perform a true A B X test. Otherwise, it's pure conjecture.

And if you can provide the results confirming you are correct, I would be much appreciative as I would learn something about the sensitivity of phase which would further help me in integrating subs into systems. But my experience tells me otherwise.

 

[sbo6]

The last paragraph is just not true based on my setups involving Wilson. It’s very clear when the optimal phase degree is found that allows the subs to work in alignment with the main speakers. The bass feels natural and the subs are fully of one piece with the mains as if the Alexias just had an extra woofer. It is a full, textured bass. Jim Smith’s Brian Bromberg bass test is incredibly lifelike with incredible presence. It’s like Brian is in the room.

Disclaimer: Please don't take the following as derogatory or negative.

I'll say this again - There is no one phase setting that aligns all subs to mains frequencies. It is a preferred compromise to our ears which setting you prefer.

For a recent sub to mains optimization ask Slowgeezer. ;-)

At some point, I think I'll start a thread showing phase with subs and mains and common correlations and what patterns evident in REW (or whatever tool you like) seem to be more preferrable.

 

[Lee]

Disclaimer: Please don't take the following as derogatory or negative.

I'll say this again - There is no one phase setting that aligns all subs to mains frequencies. It is a preferred compromise to our ears which setting you prefer.

For a recent sub to mains optimization ask Slowgeezer. ;-)

At some point, I think I'll start a thread showing phase with subs and mains and common correlations and what patterns evident in REW (or whatever tool you like) seem to be more preferrable.

I think we will just agree to disagree. I would be very interested in your proposed thread on phase with subs and mains.