Why We Need Sound Above 120 Decibels

amirm

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Wouldn't know 'bout that. Gave all my DCD away years ago. In fact, sold all my UK pressings, etc to another reviewer since it wasn't my cup of tea :)
You didn't say I had to pick music you liked! :D

And yes, I've had my pants flap listening to an audio system. So what? I don't ever remember that happening at any concert I've been to. Again, it's that question of spectacular vs. real.
That's like me saying I like sushi and you saying what's so great about eating raw fish! I get it that it is not your cup of tea. What I don't get is that you think it shouldn't be ours either!

No never said it was but that wasn't the point. You were speaking in generalities and I pointed out that the table being in the room isn't necessarily the most important limitation nor the biggest issue with LPs and dynamic range.
Well, you implied our systems lack resolution. I was trying to imply that yours couldn't handle dynamic range even if you wanted since your turntable is inside. Now we are even :D :D :D.
 

Mark (Basspig) Weiss

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Aug 3, 2010
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I am quite aware of the dangers of hearing loss. Some are unavoidable (infantry on the battlefield), so are (listening to music). I've been listening to elevated levels ever since I built my first super power system in the mid 1970s. It sounded awful, too.. Community SRH60 horns.. need I say more?
I refined things a lot by 1982 and ditched the last of my horn-loaded speakers by the mid 1980s, opting for an increase in power and more speakers instead.

Mark makes an interesting and often overlooked point about room reflections increasing the duration of sounds. My listening space is nearly anechoic at the front. The back used to be the live end, but I have too much junk back there now, so it's more dead than live. The point is, listening to music in a reverberant room greatly increases the stress on the ears because brief durations are stretched out, and reflections may actually amplify some frequencies in a manner not totally unlike a laser.

Peak to average ratio is the key here. I have the dbx 4bx, which can take any decent recording and increase both the impact of percussion as well as the dynamic range over three audio bands. It's the first and only processor I've found over the years that does this fairly transparently when used in moderation. No one has replicated it in the digital domain yet, unfortunately. So I still use it to enhance pop music. With the pop of the snare drums a good 10dB louder, it makes a lively enhancement. One thing that disappoints me about live concerts is that the impact is not there. I'd rather listen to music at home, because I can mold it to fit my mental picture of how I would like it to sound. (This applies only to amplified rock/pop music. My approach to Classical is strictly purist, with no enhancements, played at precisely the volume heard in the concert hall.) Live rock concerts don't 'fulfill' me. I once did a recording gig at a Molly Hatchet concert. I found the levels to be rather mundane, buy the lead singer in the opening band said he felt it was 'crazy loud'. I measured 114dB at FoH where my mics were located. I would have wanted more, but we live in the age of OSHA...

Ethan mentioned that I measured the GBS' SPL during a rehearsal. I clocked 105dB during a tympani crescendo. I think that was 4th row. Interestingly it was only 2dB softer in the balcony, but there was more bass up there. I make those measurements so that I know how loud to play my recording back at the studio. Part of high fidelity and being true to the source is matching the playback levels. ;)

RMS power levels are what the ear is sensitive to, and that's been the name of the game in the volume wars. You can get a boombox to play fairly loud with a compressed hip hop CD. But to get an uncompressed recording to play at that apparent level, the peak levels can go into danger land for our ears. Since I use no compression, but in fact often like to use expansion to add another 25dB to the dynamic range of my music when listening to rock or reggae, the situation demands the ability to play even louder.

On the bass end, the purists here are going to castigate me for saying this.. I have a dbx 500 Subharmonic Synthesizer. I use it to replace the missing fundamental in some 70s pop/rock. It does a great job with certain recordings, to build a believable fundamental bass in a recording that sounds like a bass fed through a practice amp that was miked at a distance. Thinking of Average White Band and similar ilk of that era. Less sensibly, I have used it with Reggae music. 60-50Hz dominant music becomes 30-25Hz dominant. It's strange sounding at first, but after a while, you wonder if it sounds better this way.

Until digital came along, I was limited by what my turntable could tolerate. Too high and the system would oscillate/feedback through the turntable at about 6-8Hz. My solution was to dub all my 45s and LPs to reel to reel tape. That's why I have so many reel tapes. When CD came along, I could go louder, but then the CD would skip. Finally, reading music off solid state media through a computer proved to be the solution to the SPL feedback problems.

Now, about the effects of bass on the ears. Really low bass.. My local YMCA has an Olympic sized swimming pool. It's 14' deep at the deep end. When one dives into the deep end, the pressure on the ears is considerable. Now imagine this pressure moving your ear drum in and out about 14-16 times a second. That's what very deep pipe organ pedal fundamentals feel like in the ears when played louder than life.

At lower frequencies, below 10Hz, when the level is set just below the point where the building structure starts to make sympathetic vibratory noise, and low enough to be below the threshold of hearing, when one speaks, it's a bizarre sensation.. one's speech is garbled. The ear is highly non-linear, and this otherwise inaudible sinewave modulates the ear drum and affects the sensitivity to sound within the audible spectrum.

Listening to pop/rock/reggae at high volume.. loud bass over 140dB is quite painful to the ears. And after the music is stopped, all sound the ear hears for about 30 minutes afterwards has a peculiar distortion to it. It's not like tinnitus, although there is a ringing component to it. What I hear during that recovery period is some gross asynchronous distortion whose harmonics are unrelated to the sounds I am hearing. This only happens after an encounter with some very loud bass guitar parts. Since my CEL 201-1 meter redlines at 140dB, I can only guess at what I'm subjecting myself to after the needle smacks into the peg at full scale. But it feels good in the gut. And as one who's no longer a spring chicken and not as regular as I was as a youngster, I must say the laxative effects are .... useful. :)

One of the saving graces, besides the dynamics of the music, is that I can only do this about once a week. I have to get everyone out of the house and that's not easy. And then it takes me an hour to clean up after a five minute session. The ceiling tiles get sucked out and fall on the floor. Dust falls everywhere. Last week one of the fluorescent tubes exploded in an overhead troffer fixture. I spent an hour vacuuming all the dust that falls all over the room. It literally 'snows' when the dB level gets in the 140+ range, as precipitation becomes dense and visible. I'm constantly experimenting with methods of hardening the room so I have less distractions. Everything in the house has to be Bass Pig-proofed--that means rubber mats on shelves, lips around every shelf to prevent items from sliding off and falling, etc. The house is less refined and more like a rugged mountain lodge, and my approach to anchoring things down is a comprehensive strategy throughout the house.

Bottom line: dynamic aperture. My fireworks video has 85dB of it. Ethan is the only other person on earth with a copy of the Blu-ray disc that I produced last summer, so he's qualified to comment on peak to average ratios and crest factors that can be extreme. :)
 

Ethan Winer

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Jul 8, 2010
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Now we find out you are creating weather patterns in your room!

That's more true than you may realize. When I first met Mark he told me his woofers are tuned to 8 Hz to put the self-resonance well below 20 Hz. So I asked him to play an 8 Hz tone very loud. It was like a blast of wind aimed at my entire body. :D

--Ethan
 

amirm

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Apr 2, 2010
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Some guys eat more hot dogs than anyone else. Some eat the hottest sauce, the biggest sauce, etc. We have Mark to outdo all of us in bass :D.

BTW, I heard we were hitting 113 db or such at 18 Hz in our showroom today! :)
 

Mark (Basspig) Weiss

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Some guys eat more hot dogs than anyone else. Some eat the hottest sauce, the biggest sauce, etc. We have Mark to outdo all of us in bass :D.

BTW, I heard we were hitting 113 db or such at 18 Hz in our showroom today! :)


LOL! That's a comfortable background music level for me. :)
 

LL21

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Dec 26, 2010
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As an aside, whether certain of us listen at 120db or not, i certainly will say i find that i appreciate having a system that can effortlessly deliver 120dbs of continuous output. And it is NOT for bragging rights or anything silly...it is because by having this tremendous capability, it allows the system to sound truly effortless at 95-110db. and that lack of strain makes for an incredibly musical, effortless delivery of music which i truly enjoy. And of course, when it comes time to crank that track...boy it is a totally different experience when the music is washing over you.

Please note...i have a good friend in the audio business who was setting up a pair of Alexandrias...spent 3 solid hours at concert levels in a small room...the next morning his hearing did not entirely return, and he now wears 2 hearing aids. It was an unfortunate accident, and he is not entirely sure he would not have ended up losing his hearing over time for other reasons (genetics, etc)...but he did say that his hearing did not properly return the next morning after that installation. And he admits the Alexandrias are so effortless, you really can crank that loudly without any strain or audible distortion.

Now that i own Wilson X-1/Grand Slamms, i am very careful about this. I bought the speakers from him, and when he installed them, he took me aside and warned me about this. Fair warning to all of us.
 

Ethan Winer

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it allows the system to sound truly effortless at 95-110db.

Exactly. Or to put it in more technical terms, it lets a system play at comfortably loud levels with very small amounts of distortion, even on brief but extreme transients. For example, a live snare drum hit can be very loud for a brief period, and a typical 100 watts per channel power amp can't recreate that cleanly unless the speakers are extremely efficient.

--Ethan
 

LL21

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Exactly. Or to put it in more technical terms, it lets a system play at comfortably loud levels with very small amounts of distortion, even on brief but extreme transients. For example, a live snare drum hit can be very loud for a brief period, and a typical 100 watts per channel power amp can't recreate that cleanly unless the speakers are extremely efficient.

--Ethan
Hi Ethan,

My X1s are 95db efficient and my Gryphon is 160 watts pure Class A with (I am told) a lot of dynamic headroom...double all the way down to 0.5ohms and double for peaks. 350,000 microfahrads of capacitance if that is applicable stat. Given your statement above about cleanly hitting peaks, what would you suggest is the clean dynamic range of my system both for instantaneous peaks like snare drums...and therefore what the max clean 'base db level' of my system might be so that it can still effortlessly hit the typical dynamic peak in an orchestral piece? For example, if my peak is 110db, then do I guess that max avg listening volume of 85db means the system can handle typical 25db loud spike in an orchestral piece? Or do orchestral pieces have a total dynamic range of 25db so 12.5db up and 12.5db down from a base volume level? Thanks...curious to learn.
 

mep

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Lloyd-You should be able to play 116dB all day long (or until you go deaf) with 128 watts of power with your speakers at one meter distance from the speakers.
 

microstrip

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Hi Ethan,

My X1s are 95db efficient and my Gryphon is 160 watts pure Class A with (I am told) a lot of dynamic headroom...double all the way down to 0.5ohms and double for peaks. 350,000 microfahrads of capacitance if that is applicable stat. Given your statement above about cleanly hitting peaks, what would you suggest is the clean dynamic range of my system both for instantaneous peaks like snare drums...and therefore what the max clean 'base db level' of my system might be so that it can still effortlessly hit the typical dynamic peak in an orchestral piece? For example, if my peak is 110db, then do I guess that max avg listening volume of 85db means the system can handle typical 25db loud spike in an orchestral piece? Or do orchestral pieces have a total dynamic range of 25db so 12.5db up and 12.5db down from a base volume level? Thanks...curious to learn.

Lloyd,

The 95dB is a sound level measurement carried with pink noise in anechoic conditions. It can be useful for comparing approximately relative speaker efficiencies (and you still have to consider speaker impedance that can affect the amplifier performance ), but does not allow you to compute typical values in your room easily. I think that there are some simulators where you enter your speaker directivity data, frequency response and efficiency and your room size and shape, surfaces materials and furniture, that allow you to compute SPLs but have no experience with them.

IMHO the easiest way to get your answer is buying a soundmeter and taking some real measurements. Considering your speakers efficiency I suggest you also get some ear protection. ;)
 

Bill Hart

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I run horns that are 104db in efficiency and like the so-called 'jump factor,' that effortless ability to deliver the cresendos without struggle or fatigue. That said, my focus has actually been to get the most amount of information at low volume levels, which means reducing the so-called 'noise floor.' Thus, if the program material can actually provide the dynamic range, I can go from whisper quiet nuances to startlingly loud without distortion, harshness or fatigue.
Home theatre may be different. I remember an old laserdisc of a space shuttle take-off- at the time I was using a velodyne 18 inch woofer in front and 15 in the rear with a fairly big Snell THX system, powered by ARC tube amps, including a 140 watt mono block for the center channel. The system just flattened out at a certain point in a large, high-ceilinged room. I suppose more watts, more efficiency, better woofers (remember this was circa the mid-90's, before the introduction of the DVD) would have added to the realism, but at what price, for what return? I never used that system for music. I did scare the bejesus out of people when I demo'd Jurrasic Park- the reptile part of the human brain kicked in when in heard those T-Rex sounds. I used to watch people squirm, and it wasn't because of the volume- it was something unconscious that told them to RUN!
 

Ethan Winer

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if my peak is 110db, then do I guess that max avg listening volume of 85db means the system can handle typical 25db loud spike in an orchestral piece?

Yes, exactly. BTW, the difference between average and peak levels is called the crest factor.

Or do orchestral pieces have a total dynamic range of 25db so 12.5db up and 12.5db down from a base volume level?

Dynamic range is the total span in dB between the loudest peak and the noise floor when no music is playing. Most orchestra works encompass a very large dynamic range, basically between ppp and fff. The recording I made of my own cello concert spans a range of about 35 dB from the softest to loudest passages. I bet some pieces span an even larger range.

--Ethan
 

j_j

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The most notable reason for an ability to reproduce levels well above 120dB is to get percussion right.

This isn't a simple problem, percussion hits (especially things like loud rimshots and impulsive things (i.e. not tympanii or bass drums)) put out initial peaks well over the level at which air is able to transmit linearly. What happens then is that as you back away from the source, the apparent spectrum changes, and in fact it is changing, and changing because of the nonlinearity of air at such levels. When you get down to 120dB or so, the air becomes much more linear (although it is strictly speaking never linear, below 80dB any error is below the random noise of the atmosphere, which makes it mostly negligible) and the timbre does not change so much.

The question of course is what the intended level of playback of a signal is. If it's redbook, it's unlikely that there are any huge peaks.

And, of course, you shouldn't be listening to them, anyhow, because they destroy your hearing slowly (or sometimes not so slowly) and relentlessly.
 

GaryProtein

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. . . . If it's redbook, it's unlikely that there are any huge peaks.

And, of course, you shouldn't be listening to them, anyhow, because they destroy your hearing slowly (or sometimes not so slowly) and relentlessly.

That is true for rock and popular music, but not for classical.

I keep my AudioControl SA-3052 running all the time to make sure I keep the peaks and average pressure levels under control. It's the hearing protector I don't have to wear. On long listening days it is possible to have the volume keep increasing without having it be very noticeable if you don't keep close track of it.
 

j_j

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That is true for rock and popular music, but not for classical.

I keep my AudioControl SA-3052 running all the time to make sure I keep the peaks and average pressure levels under control. It's the hearing protector I don't have to wear. On long listening days it is possible to have the volume keep increasing without having it be very noticeable if you don't keep close track of it.


I'm sorry, I am not talking about musical genre, I am talking about overall exposure, coupled with exposure to intense impulsive sounds.

The genre doesn't matter. Huge peaks, anything above 120dB is bad for you, average doesn't matter. Over 140, much worse.

That's what I'm saying, and genre doesn't matter, St. Saens Organ Symphony, first movement of the Pastoral, or Cheap Trick Live at Budokan.
 

j_j

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it seems i read somewhere that air in its expansion and contraction, actually exhibits a slight second harmonic effect, ie that if you tickle air with a perfect sinewave you dont quite get a perfect sinewave back from it. think nelson pass had said it if memory serves

oh, and for that special someone out there in wbf land, a new signature line below

Well, there is a nonlinearity. At lower levels, it's 2nd order, but its effective order rises with increasing level.
 

LL21

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Yes, exactly. BTW, the difference between average and peak levels is called the crest factor.



Dynamic range is the total span in dB between the loudest peak and the noise floor when no music is playing. Most orchestra works encompass a very large dynamic range, basically between ppp and fff. The recording I made of my own cello concert spans a range of about 35 dB from the softest to loudest passages. I bet some pieces span an even larger range.

--Ethan

Thank you! Very helpful.
 

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