Why every music lover needs to buy a turntable - discuss.

May 7, 2012
1,325
0
0
Seattle area
#41
The final distribution medium and specifically where they prospectively will be played and with what ideally dictates the mix and master. It is not unusual to have the mix engineer do a dub and take that to his car and drive around just as an example. If people really want to know the real reason the loudness wars started, it started with portable radios, long before digital entered the market.

LPs will be played at home. The lower noise floor allows for more USABLE dynamic range. CDs are both portable and ubiquitous. The production team needs to factor in the worst case scenarios like as mentioned, car audio. We know what a hostile environment that is with all the road and engine noise. The LP producer doesn't have to worry about that. Now we have Mastered for iTunes which by spec should be better than CD preps because they are primarily geared to headphone users who are more protected against external noise especially when using IEMs or close backed headphones. Even with buds and open backs the level of external noise is less. Just not as good. No need to squash that mix as much either.

Now this is not to say things can't swing around the other way completely. I've come across some (now defunct) "audiophile" labels that churned out CDs that were so quiet on one end that you had to constantly ride the volume control and on the other end played with processing so much to make things sickeningly airy highlighting reverb and decay trails. In a word, gimmicky. Then there are the labels trying to cash in on the vinyl resurgence. No surprise the LPs sound awful compared to the CDs from which they were derived.

Many of us are drawn to the sound quality of recordings done from the 50's to 70's, even guys like me who were born after the golden age of recording. I believe the glue is that this was the period where most listening was done at home with free space stereos. It was the time where a lot of people just sat down and listened. Recordings of the period reflected the listening habits of the market.

I've said it many times before that Mastering is the icing on the cake. The whole cake starts with the musicians and ends with the audience. Now try to imagine the infinite number of choices that are made throughout the entire process from creation to production to reproduction to appreciation. It is simply mind boggling.

I collect music, I'll take it in the format that works for where and how I'm going to be playing it. The hardest part is getting the system to play equally well regardless of format. Physical set up will always skew towards the best possible performance of the most used and preferred format at some compromise to others. Human nature. :)
Great post. I think that pretty much nails it.

I think with the advent of downloads, it would be easy enough to have 2 or 3 different masterings. One for each environment. The audiophile/home edition, the car edition, and the headphone edition. Since the LP can only be used at home it just needs the one. Having 3 different types of CD would be more of a hassle.
 

garylkoh

WBF Technical Expert (Speakers & Audio Equipment)
#42
The final distribution medium and specifically where they prospectively will be played and with what ideally dictates the mix and master. It is not unusual to have the mix engineer do a dub and take that to his car and drive around just as an example. If people really want to know the real reason the loudness wars started, it started with portable radios, long before digital entered the market.

LPs will be played at home. The lower noise floor allows for more USABLE dynamic range. CDs are both portable and ubiquitous. The production team needs to factor in the worst case scenarios like as mentioned, car audio. We know what a hostile environment that is with all the road and engine noise. The LP producer doesn't have to worry about that. Now we have Mastered for iTunes which by spec should be better than CD preps because they are primarily geared to headphone users who are more protected against external noise especially when using IEMs or close backed headphones. Even with buds and open backs the level of external noise is less. Just not as good. No need to squash that mix as much either.

Now this is not to say things can't swing around the other way completely. I've come across some (now defunct) "audiophile" labels that churned out CDs that were so quiet on one end that you had to constantly ride the volume control and on the other end played with processing so much to make things sickeningly airy highlighting reverb and decay trails. In a word, gimmicky. Then there are the labels trying to cash in on the vinyl resurgence. No surprise the LPs sound awful compared to the CDs from which they were derived.

Many of us are drawn to the sound quality of recordings done from the 50's to 70's, even guys like me who were born after the golden age of recording. I believe the glue is that this was the period where most listening was done at home with free space stereos. It was the time where a lot of people just sat down and listened. Recordings of the period reflected the listening habits of the market.

I've said it many times before that Mastering is the icing on the cake. The whole cake starts with the musicians and ends with the audience. Now try to imagine the infinite number of choices that are made throughout the entire process from creation to production to reproduction to appreciation. It is simply mind boggling.

I collect music, I'll take it in the format that works for where and how I'm going to be playing it. The hardest part is getting the system to play equally well regardless of format. Physical set up will always skew towards the best possible performance of the most used and preferred format at some compromise to others. Human nature. :)
Thanks, Jack. It makes sense that as audiophiles, we would want to have the biggest dynamic range. It shouldn't be too difficult to have a firmware compressor built into car radios and iPods so that only one version need to be delivered - the one with the least compression.
 
May 7, 2012
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0
Seattle area
#43
Thanks, Jack. It makes sense that as audiophiles, we would want to have the biggest dynamic range. It shouldn't be too difficult to have a firmware compressor built into car radios and iPods so that only one version need to be delivered - the one with the least compression.
If only we had the power to make that happen. It would take many large corporations to agree on how to implement it. Unfortunately I don't think they have enough financial motivation to bother, even if they thought it was necessary.
 

JackD201

[WBF Founding Member]
Apr 21, 2010
10,989
7
38
Manila, Philippines
#44
Thanks, Jack. It makes sense that as audiophiles, we would want to have the biggest dynamic range. It shouldn't be too difficult to have a firmware compressor built into car radios and iPods so that only one version need to be delivered - the one with the least compression.
I remember J-J expressing the same sentiment some time back. I agree with you both.
 

MylesBAstor

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
11,221
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#45
If only we had the power to make that happen. It would take many large corporations to agree on how to implement it. Unfortunately I don't think they have enough financial motivation to bother, even if they thought it was necessary.
+1

The only way something happens is that you show them they will make more money from this new technology. No one's altruistic anymore. Otherwise it's hit the road Jack.
 
Jul 1, 2010
8,713
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#46
I think this is really about mastering, not mixing. I've never heard of an album being remixed for vinyl. That doesn't mean it never happens, but I doubt it happens much. Why better masters for vinyl? The same reason why we get better masters for SACD and hi res downloads -- the media is aimed at a more sophisticated audience that listens at home.

This is the only reason I'd ever consider getting a turntable, and if I listened to the genres most abused by the volume wars, that may have happened by now. I'm just not feeling the effects much. As an example, just the other day I picked up Susan Tedeischi Live in Austin. Is it compressed? Probably, but it sounds good. We all live in the world of what matters to us. For some, that's just classical, others, modern pop. In my fairly eclectic listening world, this problem, which seems to loom so large for so many, is a serious issue on a handful of titles in my collection. That's not enough to justify the cost and hassle of a turntable, just to be trading distortions.

Tim
 
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rbbert

Active Member
Dec 12, 2010
3,423
0
36
Reno, NV
#47
...The same reason why we get better masters for SACD and hi res downloads -- the media is aimed at a more sophisticated audience that listens at home...
Unfortunately, this is only very rarely the case, not as common as it is for vinyl.
 
May 30, 2010
13,934
18
38
Portugal
#48
Why better masters for vinyl? The same reason why we get better masters for SACD and hi res downloads -- the media is aimed at a more sophisticated audience that listens at home. (...)

Tim
OK,
We had thousands of great masters made for vinyl done during decades. Should we believe that engineers decided to downgrade their quality deliberately when they were transcribed to CD?

I am really happy to be considered part of "a more sophisticated audience that listens at home." :)
 

Shaffer

New Member
Nov 2, 2012
583
0
0
NYS
#49
If only we had the power to make that happen. It would take many large corporations to agree on how to implement it. Unfortunately I don't think they have enough financial motivation to bother, even if they thought it was necessary.
Interesting enough, this is already happening. Kinda. Radio uses its own compression, as does itunes, which explains why some MP3s sound more dynamic than their CD counterparts. It's Apple. They insist on less compression, as it interferes with their own. Many MP3 players, and Spotify, offer peak normalization at a touch of a button. So, why compress Redbook to such an extent? We used to work with the 20/80 rule: 20% of the people buy 80% of the music. What is it now? Maybe 5/95? So, let's kill-off the last of the last with an inferior product. Sheer business brilliance.

As for owning a turntable, hell yea! What else would one play records on? :)
 

Shaffer

New Member
Nov 2, 2012
583
0
0
NYS
#50
I think this is really about mastering, not mixing. I've never heard of an album being remixed for vinyl. That doesn't mean it never happens, but I doubt it happens much. Why better masters for vinyl? The same reason why we get better masters for SACD and hi res downloads -- the media is aimed at a more sophisticated audience that listens at home.

This is the only reason I'd ever consider getting a turntable, and if I listened to the genres most abused by the volume wars, that may have happened by now. I'm just not feeling the effects much. As an example, just the other day I picked up Susan Tedeischi Live in Austin. Is it compressed? Probably, but it sounds good. We all live in the world of what matters to us. For some, that's just classical, others, modern pop. In my fairly eclectic listening world, this problem, which seems to loom so large for so many, is a serious issue on a handful of titles in my collection. That's not enough to justify the cost and hassle of a turntable, just to be trading distortions.

Tim
You should hear the 2LP. Seriously.
 
Dec 12, 2013
935
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16
NYC , USA
#51
I have a question is there a way to have a DSD made from someone who has a good vinyl system
And buy them. And if so would it sound as good as the vinyl
Al
 

JackD201

[WBF Founding Member]
Apr 21, 2010
10,989
7
38
Manila, Philippines
#52
Try recordings from Stockfisch or ABC. They have some LP and SACD bundles.
 

garylkoh

WBF Technical Expert (Speakers & Audio Equipment)
#53
I have a question is there a way to have a DSD made from someone who has a good vinyl system
And buy them. And if so would it sound as good as the vinyl
Al
It probably would sound as good as the vinyl - it would also be illegal to sell a copy of your LP to someone else.
 

JackD201

[WBF Founding Member]
Apr 21, 2010
10,989
7
38
Manila, Philippines
#54
Oh, that's what he meant! It isn't illegal if the material is has gone into the public domain. Instances like it being 50 years from the composer's death, etc, etc.
 
Dec 12, 2013
935
0
16
NYC , USA
#55
Well it's yet another conundrum it audio. Am I supposed to go spend 10 k for a simple TT, phono pre and now records .

No way. So the is no legal way then . ThAt stinks. It's not the money it's the time to find what I want to hear and then find good a recorder . Is the ps audio phono recorder any good , and a 5 k turntable and cartridge . I am guessing you will say no. Lol
Al
 

JackD201

[WBF Founding Member]
Apr 21, 2010
10,989
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Manila, Philippines
#56
If it was given and not sold by someone you know it wouldn't be illegal.
 
Apr 3, 2010
16,022
0
0
Seattle, WA
#57
I believe what Gary is saying. But when I had my cheap turntable, even new LPs had pops and clicks and I could not stand that. Nothing would pull me out of music faster than that.

So what is the cheapest turntable+cartridge+cleaner or whatever else is needed that will play LPs without this annoyance? If there is such a thing, I wouldn't mind buying the LP, ripping it and then listening to it that was as I too have to be able to jump tracks and such.
 
Dec 12, 2013
935
0
16
NYC , USA
#58
That's what I thought , but I do understand the idea. How much are good records these days anyway.

And do I get 33 or 45 180 gram records .
Al
 
Dec 12, 2013
935
0
16
NYC , USA
#59
Plus one for me too. I know Paul at ps audio has aid he cannot tell the his records when ripped with his new wave dsd recorder . I would be willing to pay for rips if legal. But would like to try it myself with about spending meow than 10k.

Al
 

garylkoh

WBF Technical Expert (Speakers & Audio Equipment)
#60
Unfortunately, there is no easy answer. I've bought brand new albums, cleaned them with the Klaudio ultrasonic cleaner, and they had clicks. Sometimes, playing the album a couple of times, and the clicks go away. There's now "album break-in" to consider :D

Choosing between 33rpm, 45rpm, reissues, etc. is a minefield for discussion among audiophiles. Let's not get into that.

However, while I cited 3 examples of the vinyl having much better sonics, there are many examples where the album seems to have been cut from a mp3 master - like the two vinyls from Adele.

Anybody have examples where the CD/SACD/Download has much better sonics than vinyl?