Why do so many quality DACs sound better with WAV than FLAC, AIFF, and others?
- Thread starter caesar
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Thanks Andre.
A few more questions and observations.
Does your minimserver provide gapless playback?
Could I access a minimserver from the Sonore streaming client? If so, with which app on the Sonore?
If that combination works, I could easily install a minimserver on my Netgear NAS.
I had not heard of known issues with LMS and flac decoding, but I haven't been looking.
FYI, the TotalDAC server is reported to reduce if not eliminate the flac/wav difference.
I believe it uses an MPD server, possibly modified, on a cubox.
I plan on trying one out sometime this fall but it would prudent to see if I could further optimize my current setup first
Regarding the 12TB of music and conversion to WAV being 'insane', why are you here on this forum if not to indulge in what most would call an 'insane' pursuit?
Thanks Andre.
A few more questions and observations.
Does your minimserver provide gapless playback?
Could I access a minimserver from the Sonore streaming client? If so, with which app on the Sonore?
If that combination works, I could easily install a minimserver on my Netgear NAS.
I had not heard of known issues with LMS and flac decoding, but I haven't been looking.
FYI, the TotalDAC server is reported to reduce if not eliminate the flac/wav difference.
I believe it uses an MPD server, possibly modified, on a cubox.
I plan on trying one out sometime this fall but it would prudent to see if I could further optimize my current setup first
Regarding the 12TB of music and conversion to WAV being 'insane', why are you here on this forum if not to indulge in what most would call an 'insane' pursuit?
Yes, MiniMServer provides gapless playback. MiniMserver can be discovered by any UPnP device. There a lot of apps, Jesus R.
likes Audionet, Linn Kazzo (BubbleUPnP required), Marantz and Denon have free apps, MConnect.
LMS is just a huge, bloated program, and it uses a lot resources, at least it did in the past, on my Mac.
I have read a few things about TotalDAC, have never heard or seen the products, but by all accounts they are pushing things to the limit.
Good point on your last remark!
But truth be told I'm in a different place..I'm a set it and forget stage of life. I have way to much music to wade through to obsess
about FLAC, WAV, DACs, formats etc. You know what I mean.
Thanks for the suggestions.
I've installed MinimServer on my netgear NAS and have been doing some comparisons.
I also discovered that with LMS, I was sending flac native to the Sonore and letting the Sonore decode to wav, another variable.
I set up MinimServer to transcode flac to wav and then compared playing flac files and wav files from the NAS.
Preliminary conclusions:
1. The difference between wav and flac is smaller than it was with the LMS (but I didn't have transcoding turned on for flac on LMS)
2. What I hear is that wav is still better than flac but the difference is not the night and day difference it was with previous LMS config. The difference is clear though with things like the percussion echo at the beginning of the Beach Boys - Caroline No (more and deeper echo) and the bass intro to Rickie Lee Jones - Danny's All-Star Joint (more texture, less one-notey, bass which seems to go a little lower at the beginning of the notes).
3. I don't know if this sounds weird but it gives me the sense that music is slower (relaxed?) in some way. I think it is because my mind is following more nuances as notes bend and echo and change from the initial attack to the final decay. Perhaps the first time I ever felt that about music was on first hearing the big audionote horns at a show, playing Ramirez' Missa Criolla. The micro modulations in the singing was completely immersive and I felt like I was hearing deeper into the artistry of the music than I had imagined possible, and a bit like time was suspended. YMMV
I plan to go back to the LMS server and set flac to transcode to see if this also reduces the wav-flac difference, then compare WAV streaming between the LMS and MinimServer. Lastly, I will try the AQ jitterbug, which I plan to use in my car music server, and see if that makes an audible improvement.
I know what you mean about 'stage of life' though and I'm only nibbling around edges now because I'm an engineer and like to play with new toys. I have repalced my entire system in the last 3 years (some of my stuff was 20 hears old), first the headphone setup, then the DAC, speakers, amps and cables. I am extremely happy with where my system is now and have little interest in the compulsive upgrade path. My objective (alert: blasphemy ahead) was not to find what's best but if there was a reasonable cost (YMMV) system that was a quantum leap beyond what I had before (answer: wow, yes and all praise to the gods of synergy).
I've installed MinimServer on my netgear NAS and have been doing some comparisons.
I also discovered that with LMS, I was sending flac native to the Sonore and letting the Sonore decode to wav, another variable.
I set up MinimServer to transcode flac to wav and then compared playing flac files and wav files from the NAS.
Preliminary conclusions:
1. The difference between wav and flac is smaller than it was with the LMS (but I didn't have transcoding turned on for flac on LMS)
2. What I hear is that wav is still better than flac but the difference is not the night and day difference it was with previous LMS config. The difference is clear though with things like the percussion echo at the beginning of the Beach Boys - Caroline No (more and deeper echo) and the bass intro to Rickie Lee Jones - Danny's All-Star Joint (more texture, less one-notey, bass which seems to go a little lower at the beginning of the notes).
3. I don't know if this sounds weird but it gives me the sense that music is slower (relaxed?) in some way. I think it is because my mind is following more nuances as notes bend and echo and change from the initial attack to the final decay. Perhaps the first time I ever felt that about music was on first hearing the big audionote horns at a show, playing Ramirez' Missa Criolla. The micro modulations in the singing was completely immersive and I felt like I was hearing deeper into the artistry of the music than I had imagined possible, and a bit like time was suspended. YMMV
I plan to go back to the LMS server and set flac to transcode to see if this also reduces the wav-flac difference, then compare WAV streaming between the LMS and MinimServer. Lastly, I will try the AQ jitterbug, which I plan to use in my car music server, and see if that makes an audible improvement.
I know what you mean about 'stage of life' though and I'm only nibbling around edges now because I'm an engineer and like to play with new toys. I have repalced my entire system in the last 3 years (some of my stuff was 20 hears old), first the headphone setup, then the DAC, speakers, amps and cables. I am extremely happy with where my system is now and have little interest in the compulsive upgrade path. My objective (alert: blasphemy ahead) was not to find what's best but if there was a reasonable cost (YMMV) system that was a quantum leap beyond what I had before (answer: wow, yes and all praise to the gods of synergy).
Great post.
I really appreciate you laying out the details of your comparisons. Very interesting. This is the stuff I love to see..folks who post
their findings after reducing as many variables as possible and posting musical examples of what they are hearing. Bravo.
The fact that the gap between FLAC and WAV was diminished is fascinating, although I do understand you still preferred WAV.
I am wondering if these difference can be whittled down to zero. Maybe, maybe not.
To the last point. I know I have the big things right. I am just in the final stages of getting the very small things in order. Fiber optic isolation on my LAN was
a big step forward for very little cost. Now I am just messing around with a few cables and power strips, but leisurely.
Please keep reporting back!
Thanks for the kind words.
I just stumbled on the jitterbug measurement thread, to my regret.
I am also trying to get the last small things right. If I can get the WAV-flac difference to disappear, and even if I fail,
I'm curious to see if the totaldac server shows any further benefits.
However, I need to get my current setup tweaked to my satisfaction before doing that.
Last week I stumbled onto the optical LAN thread on computeraudiophile but haven't had time to get back to it.
Can you tell me what you settled on for your optical LAN and how it improved your sound?
some background: years ago, i was renovating the master bathroom and having the living room ceiling replaced when the light bulb went off--i could see from the basement to the attic. i started with cable and TV coax, then added telephone wire, then added cat6 ethernet (with a gigabit switch on each floor of the house) and then added conduit so that someday i could run fiber if i wanted to. it seems that ethernet to fiber converters are pretty cheap so it would be a very easy addition for me (new toys for me, as well as engineer's bragging rights with colleagues--"what, you don't have fiber distribution in your house yet!"). i had assumed that bandwidth would be what eventually drove me to fiber........never occurred to me it could be for noise suppression!
in addition to testing the AQ jitterbug in my main audio system (24 port netgear switch, ethernet to Sonore client), i will try it with my car media server which i'm certain had minimal noise considerations in its design (OdroidU3 tiny linux computer, USB hard drive and USB out to Light Harmonics geekout V2 DAC............no reason to think the $50 computer has quiet or clean clocks or USB eye patterns)
There are only 3 servers that I have heard that eliminate any difference between WAV and FLAC... One is the Totaldac, of which I currently use, and the others are the Antipodes DX as well as the Antipodes DS. These are all really fantastic. I went down this rabbit hole a couple years ago, and I could never get my Mac Mini or a windows loaded Toshiba Laptop to do it, no matter the optimizations, music players, linear supplies, batteries, SSD's,... All these things did improve, but I could always tell the difference between FLAC and WAV. Not so with any of these servers I mentioned.
Very interesting. Thanks Paul.
The question I would ask next then is, how much is it worth to eliminate the difference between WAV and flac if I have no problem (what's a few more TB?) keeping files in WAV for streaming? That, of course, supposes that WAV is the same from the totalDAC server and my current netgear NAS as the server.
My system sounds so good to me streaming wav I've been saying that anything that makes a significant further improvement will likely cause my head to explode at the sheer awesomeness and my becoming one with the music.
It is not important if you don't play FLAC in the first place But it is convenient. Just buy and play, no converting to this or that.
I will say that the servers I mentioned are really light years ahead of any MAC or PC that I have ever set up for audio. Not a small difference at all.
How? The biggie is dynamics... In this regard, it is not even close. Other than, the event picture is more real, more easy to "see", instantly. I also have very good holographic imaging. FE, a real 3D image with air all around and behind the artist, so that you actually get the illusion of a real presence in your room. I had never heard digital do this until I upgraded the digital source. Better, in every single way.
But it is convenient. Just buy and play, no converting to this or that.I will say that the servers I mentioned are really light years ahead of any MAC or PC that I have ever set up for audio. Not a small difference at all.
How? The biggie is dynamics... In this regard, it is not even close. Other than, the event picture is more real, more easy to "see", instantly. I also have very good holographic imaging. FE, a real 3D image with air all around and behind the artist, so that you actually get the illusion of a real presence in your room. I had never heard digital do this until I upgraded the digital source. Better, in every single way.
It is not important if you don't play FLAC in the first place
I will say that the servers I mentioned are really light years ahead of any MAC or PC that I have ever set up for audio. Not a small difference at all.
How? The biggie is dynamics... In this regard, it is not even close. Other than, the event picture is more real, more easy to "see", instantly. I also have very good holographic imaging. FE, a real 3D image with air all around and behind the artist, so that you actually get the illusion of a real presence in your room. I had never heard digital do this until I upgraded the digital source. Better, in every single way.
just to make sure i understand, this is comparing WAV from those servers vs. WAV from PC where you here a huge difference?
Yes, absolutely. WAV through the fully tricked out MAC, vs WAV through the Totaldac, FE, and the difference is huge. You'd have a very hard time making a MAC or a PC compete with the Totaldac or the Antipodes. It's not even close IME. Might sound hard to believe, but once tried, you'll get it.
Not saying I'm the last word on making a PC or a MAC the best it can be, and there are other avenues, like playing with filters, room correction, etc, that may make more improvement to your overall than a server will, if your system needs this sort of thing.
However, from the standpoint of making the computer get out of the way, I haven't been able to do it myself, and I did everything I can think of. I found my nirvana with the mentioned servers. It was an "ah-ha" moment.
Not saying I'm the last word on making a PC or a MAC the best it can be, and there are other avenues, like playing with filters, room correction, etc, that may make more improvement to your overall than a server will, if your system needs this sort of thing.
However, from the standpoint of making the computer get out of the way, I haven't been able to do it myself, and I did everything I can think of. I found my nirvana with the mentioned servers. It was an "ah-ha" moment.
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Sure thing. I experimented with a very modest set up for fiber optic.
I bought two Tripp Lite Media convertors and 2 meter fiber cable. I simply ran a short Cat7 patch cord to the first converter, then another Cat7 cable from the second
convertor into my switch.
After giving it a good listen with and out, I came to the conclusion that the fiber optic set up, breaking the connection to rest of the house's network, made
the music sound more relaxed, easy flowing, and just cleaner.
My total cost was around $200. Not much of a risk. I am now convinced of the benefits that I have purchased two iFi iPower units in the 9V flavor to power the convertors. So another $100. These supplies purport to be quieter than batteries.
I too just got AQ jitter bug and will play around with it.
very cool..............i'll have to try that optical stuff soon.
i'm interested in the iFi power also............do you think they would improve upon the Sonore batteries?
sounds like we are on similar paths here
Yes, absolutely. WAV through the fully tricked out MAC, vs WAV through the Totaldac, FE, and the difference is huge. You'd have a very hard time making a MAC or a PC compete with the Totaldac or the Antipodes. It's not even close IME. Might sound hard to believe, but once tried, you'll get it.
Not saying I'm the last word on making a PC or a MAC the best it can be, and there are other avenues, like playing with filters, room correction, etc, that may make more improvement to your overall than a server will, if your system needs this sort of thing.
However, from the standpoint of making the computer get out of the way, I haven't been able to do it myself, and I did everything I can think of. I found my nirvana with the mentioned servers. It was an "ah-ha" moment.
thanks. very interesting.
i assume you are using aes/ebu from the server to totaldac, so your comparison used different inputs to the dac?
i'm curious, did you ever try the output of vincent's dac filter (part of the server) as the usb input to the DAC?
i wonder how much is the server and how much is the re-clocking and conversion to aes/ebu.
cheers
I did try my Mac Mini into the USB input of the reclocker (in place of the onboard Cubox). This was better than the Mac Mini directly into the USB input of the DAC, but still not close to what the server brings to the table. The reclocker attenuates jitter. It does a very good job of this mind you, but the digital source is still the most important. Get that right, and all is right.
Hmmm.. Jesus is a great designer and one smart cookie..I can't say with total confidence that
the iPower will improve the Sonore.
I got my Bryston BDP-2 yesterday and it is the single most game changing component I have added to my system
since I began the hobby.
No I have tried at least two dozen..SOtM, Simaudio MiND, Aurender...going all the way back to the Squeezebox Classic.
Bryston got it right. If one is not looking for the belle du jour, pointless conveniences, and the latest trend, nothing sounds better IMO. I reviewed the BDP-1 as well back in 2009.
Before my Lumin S1 I had a Bryston BDP-1 with the Bryston BDA-2 DAC, and then the Auralic Vega DAC. The Lumin is much, much better. It probably is the built in DAC that makes it better.
I have my optical connection installed today.
Two tp-link mc2200 fiber/Ethernet converters, 15m of om3 fiber and 2 short cat7 cables, total cost less than $150. I left the 50ft cat6 cable in place so I can do comparisons this week.
Lesson 1-- the duplex assembly of 2 fiber connectors is a lot wider than any of the holes I've made in the LRfloor down to the basement where my router resides. By taking apart the plastic that pairs them side by side, I could separate the tx and rx plugs and run them separately through a hole sized for an Ethernet plug.
Also installed minimserver on my netgear NAS, switched to the upnp/mpd renderer on the sonicorbiter and using bubble as my control app.
So no more Logitech
Lots of comparisons to come
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