Which is Better Sound From High Power: Single Tube SET or Parallel Tube SET?

Golum

Well-Known Member
Jun 7, 2018
789
799
110
Lausanne, CH
#62
Yeah PPSET (i just wrote PSET) ;)
 

Joao@altheamusica

Well-Known Member
Sep 20, 2010
83
44
423
#64
PSET usually means parallel set. What is a Push pull SET? The amp is push pull..,might be really good but it is a PP triode amp.
You are correct this is a Push Pull Amp ... PPSET makes no sence and there does not exist a "Push-Pull-Single-Ended" design. There is PPP which means Parallel-Push-Pull. I know Günter Tobian since his early years in his Audio decades and he believes in that Push-Pull sounds better than Single Ended designs. BTW, 20W out of a 300B IS OK WHEN USING Push-Pull - 20W from a Single Ended 300B means to run the tube very "hot" and the distortions you'll get are very high...
 
Likes: Jamesdonahue
Jan 23, 2011
4,794
326
540
Amsterdam holland
#65
Thats probably also the reason CAT uses 8 KT 120 s or 8 6550 c tubes per channel to get *only * 100 watts.
For the Jl 2 that is , for the JL 3 thats 16 per channel for 150 watts.
If this argument is true for all tubes then its of the utmost importance to stay as far away from this distortion area as one can.
So high eff and high imp LS are crucial for uncoloured tube / SET music reproduction.
You need a healthy amount of headroom with tubes , i would say the more the better
For great dynamics in the music instead of a drained depleted sound.
As said before there is drive and optimal drive and a lot in between.
 

morricab

Well-Known Member
Apr 25, 2014
4,663
1,212
388
Switzerland
#67
You are correct this is a Push Pull Amp ... PPSET makes no sence and there does not exist a "Push-Pull-Single-Ended" design. There is PPP which means Parallel-Push-Pull. I know Günter Tobian since his early years in his Audio decades and he believes in that Push-Pull sounds better than Single Ended designs. BTW, 20W out of a 300B IS OK WHEN USING Push-Pull - 20W from a Single Ended 300B means to run the tube very "hot" and the distortions you'll get are very high...
Well...I don’t agree with him... You can get an honest 15 watts from parallel SET 300B. I had JJ322 that was measured in a Polish magazine with 15 watts at 0.8% distortion and that was mostly 2nd harmonic with a nice exponential decay with harmonic order. It was also linear to 35khz thanks to very large double C core output transformers and yet had a nice softness in the highs. That said, it couldn’t really drive many non-horn speakers, unlike my Aries Cerat Genus that drives everything despite being only 5 watts more on paper...in reality they are worlds apart with regard to drive.
 

morricab

Well-Known Member
Apr 25, 2014
4,663
1,212
388
Switzerland
#68
Its probably also the reason why people like the Audio research 750 s or 610 s
These amps sound smeared by comparison...the CATS are the only multi-tube big PP amps that really approach the clarity of a proper SET on a suitable speaker...but only approach, IMO. They don’t make as much power because they run Class A and triode wired (at least the bigger ones do).
 

amadeus

VIP/Donor
Jan 13, 2018
165
132
200
#69
There are single tube SET amplifiers, such the Wavac and the Audio Music (833 tube) and the NAT Magma New SE (GM-100 tube), in the 120 watt output range and there are parallel SET amplifiers, such as the MastersounD PF100 (four 845s), putting out 120 watts.

What are the sonic pros and cons of a high power single tube SET amplifier versus the same output level in a parallel SET amplifier?
I did own the Wavac 833 amps the sound is lush it has a golden midrange and its everything but fast and explosief whit dynamics making live sounds also the 120 watt and sometimes its specified 150 watt is not what i expected take this power rating whit a pinch of salt.

I own the Kondo Kagura paralel single ended 845 tubes specification says its 50 watt but it is much more powerful than any 833 amp i have auditioned.

I own also a pair of Mastersound 845 mono amps whit 2x845 tubes each mono and it is unbelievable powerful also much more powerful than Wavac 833 monos.I suspect that the Mastersound whit 4x845 tubes each Chanel is a risky thing to match and make 2x845 tubes each chanel is 10x easier for the designer than 4x845 tubes each Chanel i didn't heard my self any amp anywhere that was successful in this regard.The home made transformers of Mastersound are so good that probably you have enough on the monos whit 2x845 tubes each mono they are a bargain for the price i do not know a better amp.... The Kagura is 20% better and 12x times more expensief by example!
 

Audiocrack

Well-Known Member
Aug 10, 2012
2,072
113
333
#70
I did own the Wavac 833 amps the sound is lush it has a golden midrange and its everything but fast and explosief whit dynamics making live sounds also the 120 watt and sometimes its specified 150 watt is not what i expected take this power rating whit a pinch of salt.

I own the Kondo Kagura paralel single ended 845 tubes specification says its 50 watt but it is much more powerful than any 833 amp i have auditioned.

I own also a pair of Mastersound 845 mono amps whit 2x845 tubes each mono and it is unbelievable powerful also much more powerful than Wavac 833 monos.I suspect that the Mastersound whit 4x845 tubes each Chanel is a risky thing to match and make 2x845 tubes each chanel is 10x easier for the designer than 4x845 tubes each Chanel i didn't heard my self any amp anywhere that was successful in this regard.The home made transformers of Mastersound are so good that probably you have enough on the monos whit 2x845 tubes each mono they are a bargain for the price i do not know a better amp.... The Kagura is 20% better and 12x times more expensief by example!
Just to be sure: the Kondo Kagura’s are 211 amps. And yes, they are very, very powerful set amps. Much more so if you (chassis) ground them, in my case with Tripoint devices. I am sure that after grounding the Kagura’s you will raise the percentage of 20 significantly
 
Likes: morricab

Ron Resnick

Site Co-Owner, Administrator
Jan 25, 2015
8,209
2,635
730
Beverly Hills, CA
#71
These amps sound smeared by comparison...the CATS are the only multi-tube big PP amps that really approach the clarity of a proper SET on a suitable speaker...but only approach, IMO. They don’t make as much power because they run Class A and triode wired (at least the bigger ones do).

I personally would be very curious to compare the highest power Class A CAT to the VTL Siegfried II (in both triode and tetrode modes).

Has anyone made this exact or a similar comparison?
 

Ron Resnick

Site Co-Owner, Administrator
Jan 25, 2015
8,209
2,635
730
Beverly Hills, CA
#72
I did own the Wavac 833 amps the sound is lush it has a golden midrange and its everything but fast and explosief whit dynamics making live sounds also the 120 watt and sometimes its specified 150 watt is not what i expected take this power rating whit a pinch of salt.

I own the Kondo Kagura paralel single ended 845 tubes specification says its 50 watt but it is much more powerful than any 833 amp i have auditioned.

I own also a pair of Mastersound 845 mono amps whit 2x845 tubes each mono and it is unbelievable powerful also much more powerful than Wavac 833 monos.I suspect that the Mastersound whit 4x845 tubes each Chanel is a risky thing to match and make 2x845 tubes each chanel is 10x easier for the designer than 4x845 tubes each Chanel i didn't heard my self any amp anywhere that was successful in this regard.The home made transformers of Mastersound are so good that probably you have enough on the monos whit 2x845 tubes each mono they are a bargain for the price i do not know a better amp.... The Kagura is 20% better and 12x times more expensief by example!

Have you heard the MastersounD PF100 Litz (the 4 x 845 model)?

What is your theory as to why the 50w Kagura sounded more powerful than the 120w 833?

Have you heard the Audio Music 833S Ultima amplifier (made in China by Fang)?

Did you happen to compare directly in the same system the MastersounD 2 x 845 with the Wavac 833?
 

morricab

Well-Known Member
Apr 25, 2014
4,663
1,212
388
Switzerland
#73
Have you heard the MastersounD PF100 Litz (the 4 x 845 model)?

What is your theory as to why the 50w Kagura sounded more powerful than the 120w 833?

Have you heard the Audio Music 833S Ultima amplifier (made in China by Fang)?

Did you happen to compare directly in the same system the MastersounD 2 x 845 with the Wavac 833?
I suspect it might have to do with the high measured distortion in the bass for the WAVAC...but that is only a guess and could be a culmination of many factors.

Aries Cerat amps also seem to be s bottomless pit of power despite typical moderate power ratings...instantaneous power delivery matters more than static power numbers...
 

morricab

Well-Known Member
Apr 25, 2014
4,663
1,212
388
Switzerland
#74
I personally would be very curious to compare the highest power Class A CAT to the VTL Siegfried II (in both triode and tetrode modes).

Has anyone made this exact or a similar comparison?
The new CAT models might not be Class A anymore, which would be how they have managed to keep the power up and size down. The old JL2 signature was HUGE and more than double the JL5s weight. It also had much bigger output iron. Now the new claims to use better amorphous core trannies, which probably do sound better in the upper ranges.
 

Ron Resnick

Site Co-Owner, Administrator
Jan 25, 2015
8,209
2,635
730
Beverly Hills, CA
#75
I suspect it might have to do with the high measured distortion in the bass for the WAVAC...but that is only a guess and could be a culmination of many factors.

Aries Cerat amps also seem to be s bottomless pit of power despite typical moderate power ratings...instantaneous power delivery matters more than static power numbers...
What is the highest output all-tube amp that Aries Cerat makes? The Concero 65?
 

morricab

Well-Known Member
Apr 25, 2014
4,663
1,212
388
Switzerland
#76
What is the highest output all-tube amp that Aries Cerat makes? The Concero 65?
Hi Ron,
Yes, the Concero 65 is the highest output all tube amps from AC. However, the higher versions and Achsileas , while having the same rated power, will have even more drive and authority due to the much larger power supplies, driver design etc. Not that Conceros are small by any means (about 220lbs per mono).
 

Ron Resnick

Site Co-Owner, Administrator
Jan 25, 2015
8,209
2,635
730
Beverly Hills, CA
#77
Hi Ron,
Yes, the Concero 65 is the highest output all tube amps from AC. However, the higher versions and Achsileas , while having the same rated power, will have even more drive and authority due to the much larger power supplies, driver design etc. Not that Conceros are small by any means (about 220lbs per mono).
Thank you, Brad.
 

Joao@altheamusica

Well-Known Member
Sep 20, 2010
83
44
423
#78
Thats probably also the reason CAT uses 8 KT 120 s or 8 6550 c tubes per channel to get *only * 100 watts.
For the Jl 2 that is , for the JL 3 thats 16 per channel for 150 watts.
If this argument is true for all tubes then its of the utmost importance to stay as far away from this distortion area as one can.
So high eff and high imp LS are crucial for uncoloured tube / SET music reproduction.
You need a healthy amount of headroom with tubes , i would say the more the better
For great dynamics in the music instead of a drained depleted sound.
As said before there is drive and optimal drive and a lot in between.
In general yes... but I prefer to use an input transformer to make the phase splitting direct at the input :)
 

Joao@altheamusica

Well-Known Member
Sep 20, 2010
83
44
423
#79
Well...I don’t agree with him... You can get an honest 15 watts from parallel SET 300B. I had JJ322 that was measured in a Polish magazine with 15 watts at 0.8% distortion and that was mostly 2nd harmonic with a nice exponential decay with harmonic order. It was also linear to 35khz thanks to very large double C core output transformers and yet had a nice softness in the highs. That said, it couldn’t really drive many non-horn speakers, unlike my Aries Cerat Genus that drives everything despite being only 5 watts more on paper...in reality they are worlds apart with regard to drive.
Nice answer but keep in mind that the driver stage is more important than the output stage... the driver makes the music (voltage amplification and driving the output tubes) and the output stage is for impedance matching. Large double C-cores are fine but the winding diagram of the transformer is more important - and of course the operating points and the psu.
 

Ron Resnick

Site Co-Owner, Administrator
Jan 25, 2015
8,209
2,635
730
Beverly Hills, CA
#80
I really don't understand this concept of how 50w can sound louder or more poweful in audio than 120w or 150w. It certainly does not work this way in RF (radio) land.
 

About us

  • What’s Best Forum is THE forum for high-end audio, product reviews, advice and sharing experiences on the best of everything else. A place where audiophiles and audio companies discuss existing and new audio products, music servers, music streamers and computer audio, digital to audio converters, turntables, phono stages, cartridges, reel to reel, speakers, headphones, tube amplifiers and solid state amplification. Founded in 2010 What's Best Forum invites intelligent and courteous people of all interests and backgrounds to describe and discuss the best of everything. From beginners to life-long hobbyists to industry professionals we enjoy learning about new things and meeting new people and participating in spirited debates.

Quick Navigation

User Menu

Steve Williams
Site Founder | Site Owner | Administrator
Ron Resnick
Site Co-Owner | Administrator
Julian (The Fixer)
Website Build | Marketing Managersing