Where is Waldo's glockenspiel?

[cat6man]

I ran into a surprising (to me) issue yesterday, while accompanying a friend to audition some speakers.
Before leaving his house, we listened to a few of his and my test tracks on his system.

When he played John Renbourn's Earl of Salisbury from the Sir John Alot album, I immediately interjected "you have your speakers reversed, the glockenspiel should be in the left channel!"

While I am occasionally guilty of reversing channels and/or channel phase, I now consistently used test tracks to unambiguously identify the correct L/R channel and phase. The glockenspiel is in the left channel. With both of us engineers, you can imagine that we were each sure that the other had miswired their system.

On to the audio dealer and our very first objective, even before SQ, was to determine "where was the glockenspiel." To my dismay, I heard it in the right (i.e. WRONG) channel. WTF!

After an hour of streaming on Qobuz, I requested that we listen to my test tracks on a USB stick plugged directly into the Bartok DAC. I am an absolutely confirmed believer that WAV files sound better than FLAC files of the same music, and since Qobuz streams FLAC, I wanted to hear the speakers being auditioned under the best circumstances.

First conclusion: It was immediately obvious from the first track (Concerto for Cootie from Ellington's Great Paris Concerts) that the SQ from the Bartok was hugely improved and not at all subtle. I'd go so far as to say that I would not evaluate any system in the future on streaming (e.g. FLAC) alone. I cannot unheard the difference. YMMV, of course.

The second conclusion is not debatable. The glockenspiel was now in the left speaker. We repeated the test when we got back to his house, comparing a CD he had ripped to the streaming version. The glockenspiel again changed channels, so we've concluded that Qobuz has reversed the L and R channels.

A different dealer we spoke to today estimated that up to 10% of albums may be reversed on streaming sites. Since I listen to 95% or more local files, this had never before come to my attention. Maybe this is well known to more experienced streaming folks?

I think it matters but I've had responses ranging from

1. If it doesn't involve video, it doesn't matter

to

2. If I'm used to it one way, reversing the channels can be disconcerting

to

2b. It should be played the way the artist intended of course

to my wife's response

3. Of course it matters. I know where the bass players in the orchestra are sitting and this is not subjective!

Maybe this is well known and I've just never run into it, but I thought I'd see what others' experiences have been.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

left and right being reversed (not + & -) can alter how the recording lays out in terms of the rightness and frequency balance of the images. mirror images are not as real as the original image.

it's more than just what is familiar placement. reversing is not always harmful, but the more natural the recording process, the more elements are in the recording, the more it can wreak havoc. the flow and space can be different.

not sure technically why this is. but it's what i hear when i get it wrong.

 

[astrotoy]

Fairly famously, the Getz Gilberto album had the channels reversed in the CD/Spotify version compared to the original. One of my friends was over and we heard my 15ips 2 track tape copy and he said, the channels are reversed. However, they were correct, it was the CD (which he had) which was reversed.

Larry (Corrections, additions, etc. are always welcome).

 

[Gregm]

I ran into a surprising (to me) issue yesterday, while accompanying a friend to audition some speakers.
Before leaving his house, we listened to a few of his and my test tracks on his system.

When he played John Renbourn's Earl of Salisbury from the Sir John Alot album, I immediately interjected "you have your speakers reversed, the glockenspiel should be in the left channel!"

While I am occasionally guilty of reversing channels and/or channel phase, I now consistently used test tracks to unambiguously identify the correct L/R channel and phase. The glockenspiel is in the left channel. With both of us engineers, you can imagine that we were each sure that the other had miswired their system.

On to the audio dealer and our very first objective, even before SQ, was to determine "where was the glockenspiel." To my dismay, I heard it in the right (i.e. WRONG) channel. WTF!

After an hour of streaming on Qobuz, I requested that we listen to my test tracks on a USB stick plugged directly into the Bartok DAC. I am an absolutely confirmed believer that WAV files sound better than FLAC files of the same music, and since Qobuz streams FLAC, I wanted to hear the speakers being auditioned under the best circumstances.

First conclusion: It was immediately obvious from the first track (Concerto for Cootie from Ellington's Great Paris Concerts) that the SQ from the Bartok was hugely improved and not at all subtle. I'd go so far as to say that I would not evaluate any system in the future on streaming (e.g. FLAC) alone. I cannot unheard the difference. YMMV, of course.

The second conclusion is not debatable. The glockenspiel was now in the left speaker. We repeated the test when we got back to his house, comparing a CD he had ripped to the streaming version. The glockenspiel again changed channels, so we've concluded that Qobuz has reversed the L and R channels.

A different dealer we spoke to today estimated that up to 10% of albums may be reversed on streaming sites. Since I listen to 95% or more local files, this had never before come to my attention. Maybe this is well known to more experienced streaming folks?

I think it matters but I've had responses ranging from

1. If it doesn't involve video, it doesn't matter

to

2. If I'm used to it one way, reversing the channels can be disconcerting

to

2b. It should be played the way the artist intended of course

to my wife's response

3. Of course it matters. I know where the bass players in the orchestra are sitting and this is not subjective!

Maybe this is well known and I've just never run into it, but I thought I'd see what others' experiences have been.

What the wife said. Absolutely!

 

[rando]

A different dealer we spoke to today estimated that up to 10% of albums may be reversed on streaming sites. Since I listen to 95% or more local files, this had never before come to my attention. Maybe this is well known to more experienced streaming folks?

As with many other things in life. There are levels of disfunction.

Seems fairly safe to assess that Qobuz' building a catalog licensing arrangement from scratch in the US came about under different legal and business conditions than one of their predecessors going back over a decade. Notwithstanding handling of so many files being delivered allowed little question of whether there were any instances of intentionally lower quality flawed material slated to be delivered and contractually installed without modification by them. Once in place the only available recourse is to request a corrected file from the distributor.

Artistic changes by distributing body have been happening since the first composition was printed. Shadow remasters of CD placing 10's of versions out there in a single market within a year of initial release were just the first digital example. Today we see more advanced forms of DRM and singular copies a decoder ring can easily pick out a watermark inside of that zeroes in on date and delivery vehicle. Or maybe someone walked away for a minute while training the intern allowing channels to get reversed. Same audible outcome to anyone streaming the file. Most people who recognize the change just shrug.

Fairly famously, the Getz Gilberto album had the channels reversed in the CD/Spotify version compared to the original. One of my friends was over and we heard my 15ips 2 track tape copy and he said, the channels are reversed. However, they were correct, it was the CD (which he had) which was reversed.

Larry (Corrections, additions, etc. are always welcome).

MFSL remaster that produced a CD and SACD from the same desk with channels on different sides is a very accessible example. The two sound considerably different as well.

 

[astrotoy]

Most embarrassing is to play a 45 record and forgetting to switch back to 33 and not realizing it for at least a few minutes and maybe the entire side.

 

[cat6man]

I just found a new aspect of the problem and it let's Qobuz off the hook. I was listening to the re-issued box of John Renbourn's albums and, &#+!, the glockenspiel was now on the right. So the re-issued disk is presumably the cause of the travelling glockenspiel, not the streaming.