What's best in highly sensitive/efficient speakers.

[DaveC]

Hi Brad,

Yes precisely - the speaker crossover parts are massively higher values absorbing more current in heat.

No. I'm not sure how to explain it any more than what Jeroen and I have said. I understand why you are thinking what you are, but it's not correct. Passive speaker level XO does not do what you are thinking it does unless you're talking about a resistor network attenuating signal.

 

[Audiophile Bill]

No. I'm not sure how to explain it any more than what Jeroen and I have said. I understand why you are thinking what you are, but it's not correct. Passive speaker level XO does not do what you are thinking it does unless you're talking about a resistor network attenuating signal.

Not sure what you think is wrong, Dave.

You have both stated that my stereo amp will see >250hz only - this is not true. It is *only* true if there were another amp powering the woofer in my speaker in a biamping mode, which there is not.

It is also factually true that the values used in a line level crossover are in orders of magnitude thousands lower than line level - we are talking nano farads versus microfarads for example. It is also true that in line level passive, the damping factor of the amplifier is higher than with a passive crossover in front of it. It is also true that the speaker passive level is less efficient use of the power. These are all accurate facts, Dave.

 

[DaveC]

Not sure what you think is wrong, Dave.

You have both stated that my stereo amp will see >250hz only - this is not true. It is *only* true if there were another amp powering the woofer in my speaker in a biamping mode, which there is not.

It is also factually true that the values used in a line level crossover are in orders of magnitude thousands lower than line level - we are talking nano farads versus microfarads for example. It is also true that in line level passive, the damping factor of the amplifier is higher than with a passive crossover in front of it. It is also true that the speaker passive level is less efficient use of the power. These are all accurate facts, Dave.

What is wrong: The caps and coils in a passive xo don't "absorb current" or produce heat. They are not resistors, they are reactive devices and the end result of speaker level vs line level xo will be exactly the same. It might be best to think of it as removing the lower frequency load from the amp.

It is true the values of components used in line level are much lower, but the issue is the signal is much more susceptible to corruption vs speaker level. I suggest you try both and see for yourself. Passive components at line level can have major effects on the sound, much moreso vs speaker level. I've built my entire system, including tube preamp, amp and speakers... simply changing a single resistor, cap or trafo in the signal path can have major effects. Done at speaker level the effects are far less.

The damping factor may be higher if a passive xo is not in place but in many cases the overall result is not as ideal, especially if you are using a SET amp with high output impedance. Once DF is beyond a certain point increasing it has little effect. The passive xo is not only there to create a crossover slope, it is also there to shape response and create an even impedance for the amp to see. This is more important vs having a direct connection to the amp as it will allow for smoother frequency response from the system. Also, passive xo frequently contain step and notch filters that are intrinsic to the speaker and drivers used. An example is removing the breakup nodes of a ceramic cone driver using a notch filter and baffle step correction.

If you're trying to create a simple slope to remove bass from a single driver then a line level xo makes sense as it may simply require a smaller value coupling cap, so in this case you're actually reducing the complexity of the system as well as the overall parts count. This is good. OTOH, if you have a 3+ way speaker that uses hard-coned drivers with steep slopes a line level xo is a poor choice. If you have a multi-way traditional horn system the drivers typically benefit from impedance and response correction and a line level xo is a poor choice.

As far as you not having another amp for the woofers I thought you said you're looking into a mosfet amp for that? Of course you have to biamp if you want to remove bass duties from a SET amp, otherwise no bass!

 

[audioquattr]

What is wrong: The caps and coils in a passive xo don't "absorb current" or produce heat. They are not resistors, they are reactive devices and the end result of speaker level vs line level xo will be exactly the same. It might be best to think of it as removing the lower frequency load from the amp.

It is true the values of components used in line level are much lower, but the issue is the signal is much more susceptible to corruption vs speaker level. I suggest you try both and see for yourself. Passive components at line level can have major effects on the sound, much moreso vs speaker level. I've built my entire system, including tube preamp, amp and speakers... simply changing a single resistor, cap or trafo in the signal path can have major effects. Done at speaker level the effects are far less.

The damping factor may be higher if a passive xo is not in place but in many cases the overall result is not as ideal, especially if you are using a SET amp with high output impedance. Once DF is beyond a certain point increasing it has little effect. The passive xo is not only there to create a crossover slope, it is also there to shape response and create an even impedance for the amp to see. This is more important vs having a direct connection to the amp as it will allow for smoother frequency response from the system. Also, passive xo frequently contain step and notch filters that are intrinsic to the speaker and drivers used. An example is removing the breakup nodes of a ceramic cone driver using a notch filter and baffle step correction.

If you're trying to create a simple slope to remove bass from a single driver then a line level xo makes sense as it may simply require a smaller value coupling cap, so in this case you're actually reducing the complexity of the system as well as the overall parts count. This is good. OTOH, if you have a 3+ way speaker that uses hard-coned drivers with steep slopes a line level xo is a poor choice. If you have a multi-way traditional horn system the drivers typically benefit from impedance and response correction and a line level xo is a poor choice.

As far as you not having another amp for the woofers I thought you said you're looking into a mosfet amp for that? Of course you have to biamp if you want to remove bass duties from a SET amp, otherwise no bass!

I fully agree. This is what i was trying to say, Dave is much more clear in explaining .
It's not an ego thing for me, i only meant it positive to give it some thoughts.
I keep quiet now.

 

[Audiophile Bill]

What is wrong: The caps and coils in a passive xo don't "absorb current" or produce heat. They are not resistors, they are reactive devices and the end result of speaker level vs line level xo will be exactly the same. It might be best to think of it as removing the lower frequency load from the amp.

It is true the values of components used in line level are much lower, but the issue is the signal is much more susceptible to corruption vs speaker level. I suggest you try both and see for yourself. Passive components at line level can have major effects on the sound, much moreso vs speaker level. I've built my entire system, including tube preamp, amp and speakers... simply changing a single resistor, cap or trafo in the signal path can have major effects. Done at speaker level the effects are far less.

The damping factor may be higher if a passive xo is not in place but in many cases the overall result is not as ideal, especially if you are using a SET amp with high output impedance. Once DF is beyond a certain point increasing it has little effect. The passive xo is not only there to create a crossover slope, it is also there to shape response and create an even impedance for the amp to see. This is more important vs having a direct connection to the amp as it will allow for smoother frequency response from the system. Also, passive xo frequently contain step and notch filters that are intrinsic to the speaker and drivers used. An example is removing the breakup nodes of a ceramic cone driver using a notch filter and baffle step correction.

If you're trying to create a simple slope to remove bass from a single driver then a line level xo makes sense as it may simply require a smaller value coupling cap, so in this case you're actually reducing the complexity of the system as well as the overall parts count. This is good. OTOH, if you have a 3+ way speaker that uses hard-coned drivers with steep slopes a line level xo is a poor choice. If you have a multi-way traditional horn system the drivers typically benefit from impedance and response correction and a line level xo is a poor choice.

As far as you not having another amp for the woofers I thought you said you're looking into a mosfet amp for that? Of course you have to biamp if you want to remove bass duties from a SET amp, otherwise no bass!

Thanks Dave - some useful points and makes sense.

“If you're trying to create a simple slope to remove bass from a single driver then a line level xo makes sense as it may simply require a smaller value coupling cap, so in this case you're actually reducing the complexity of the system as well as the overall parts count.”

>> This is precisely what I am trying to do.

In terms of loss of energy - I stand by the speaker level especially of steeper slopes in a multi-way system being more inefficient than passive line level - just can’t see for the life of me how that can’t be the case with all the inductors, capacitor and resistors in play (especially obviously the latter lost in heat).

I will indeed be building both so will have feedback.

Best.

 

[Audiophile Bill]

I fully agree. This is what i was trying to say, Dave is much more clear in explaining .
It's not an ego thing for me, i only meant it positive to give it some thoughts.
I keep quiet now.

Dave’s points were very different in this post.

 

[Fidach Lad]

Look at the Orangutan line at Devore Fidelity.https://www.devorefidelity.com. The O/93 would probably work for you. It is 93dB sensitive, with an impedance of 10 Ohms, which taken together make it quite an efficient speaker. I've heard them at shows with a 300B amp and I actually preferred these to the 0/96. However, if you want go to lower powered SETs, like the 2A3, you might want to look at the other Oranutang speakers. I have heard the O/96, but not the O/Reference models, which are brand new and which are 98dB sensitive with a 12 Ohm impedance.

I would avoid any speaker that has an impedance less than 8 Ohms, especially with many drivers, like the Wilsons mentioned earlier in this thread. I'd also avoid single driver speakers, as their treble is usually very jagged, unless the single drivers are actively crossed over to a ribbon tweeter, such as those made by Tonian Labs.

 

[Exlibris]

Classic Audio Loudspeakers
Do folks have any experience with these?

 

[Folsom]

Classic Audio Loudspeakers
Do folks have any experience with these?

One of the worst sounds at a show ever is my only experience.

 

[Audiophile Bill]

One of the worst sounds at a show ever is my only experience.

Also heard at a show and didn’t like.

Not sure whether it was partly induced by the mutton dressed as kebab audiophile muzak promo.

 

[Exlibris]

Also heard at a show and didn’t like.

Not sure whether it was partly induced by the mutton dressed as kebab audiophile muzak promo.

I have the sense that if I want to keep my 45 amp it will be to bi-amp a speaker that is high-eff up top and use a more powerful amp for the woofer.
Otherwise, just go with a big bottle SET or a PSET and the Odeon 33.
Bi-amp, I think, is a bit of a crapshoot.

 

[bonzo75]

Also heard at a show and didn’t like.

Not sure whether it was partly induced by the mutton dressed as kebab audiophile muzak promo.

I heard the combination in a small room in a set up in Germany and didn't like at all.

 

[KeithR]

I have the sense that if I want to keep my 45 amp it will be to bi-amp a speaker that is high-eff up top and use a more powerful amp for the woofer.
Otherwise, just go with a big bottle SET or a PSET and the Odeon 33.
Bi-amp, I think, is a bit of a crapshoot.

Have you auditioned Wyetech in Canada? His 211 Topaz might be perfect for the Odeons.

 

[Exlibris]

Have you auditioned Wyetech in Canada? His 211 Topaz might be perfect for the Odeons.

I actually heard that amp in a system here maybe 10 years ago. It is certainly an option. (Don't love the colour though)

 

[Exlibris]

Kedar heard these a few times. Lampi Lukasz used to own them.

Yes, I see his comment on the bottom of this page from earlier this year.
https://www.dagogo.com/destination-audio-system-review/4/

 

[morricab]

I actually heard that amp in a system here maybe 10 years ago. It is certainly an option. (Don't love the colour though)

One of my customers uses Concero 65s + Impera with his Odeon No. 38s...

 

[kantx]

Tune Audio Anima and hORNs universum are easily superior. Both are very different though. Marc hates horns and will recommend the Zus.

For large orchestral music, Universum or Animas or AG Duo ? I'm wondering… Heard the Animas. Was impressed.

 

[bonzo75]

For large orchestral music, Universum or Animas or AG Duo ? I'm wondering… Heard the Animas. Was impressed.

Both uni and Anima are much preferred to the AG duo for orchestra. Maybe not for pop or beats. If you like the Anima, you will love it. It has that raw attack and impact. They all have some negatives but as a whole can appeal

 

[marslo]

Both uni and Anima are much preferred to the AG duo for orchestra. Maybe not for pop or beats. If you like the Anima, you will love it. It has that raw attack and impact. They all have some negatives but as a whole can appeal

You have heard a lot of horns, more than me for sure, but did you already auditioned Duo Mezzo XD?
Worth to do so before giving firm recommendations.

 

[bonzo75]

You have heard a lot of horns, more than me for sure, but did you already auditioned Duo Mezzo XD?
Worth to do so before giving firm recommendations.

I have yet to meat someone who disliked the duo's who likes duo XD. All those who have recommended XD to me liked the one before. The problem I have with it, as well as with Liszt, Acapella violon type of models is the type of bass and the crossover. I guess the XD can fix the crossover point. Also, all those who have recommended it have been non classical people and I can see why that type of bass might appeal to them. The horns symphony has some of that bass too, but is available ex dem for only 9k. I personally would not take it and save up for the uni. The trio is better than all of these for large orchestral. Also, I prefer the tone of uni and Anima more to all the AG speakers.

I am also now going away from all these and will get someone to build me a horn.