What preamp have I not tried?

[1rsw]

Having heard many iterations of Madfloyd's system, I doubt he would like the Spectral/Wilson combination. He keeps trying tubes. But, 1rsw, you make a good point about how subjective this all is. He is learning first hand about some awfully good gear. I suppose he could try an all Spectral combination with his MIT and Sashas. Personally, I think it has as much to do with room and system setup as it does with equipment. Presence, dynamics and tone can all be changed with a shifting of listener and speaker positions.

His passion for tubes is exactly why I suggested Spectral. I can't think of any other SS amps out there that can portray the detail, transparency and accuracy where the end result sounds "real"...which is what I always think guys dig about tubes. There is an organic tone, a realness about the outcome. They get there in very different ways but the end result is eerily similar. I cringe when I read stuff out there about Spectral/MIT because 99% of it is so inaccurate, especially when it comes to their current offerings. I've told Madfloyd to round up all of you guys and drive in to Columbus. I welcome some input on my rig too!

 

[MadFloyd]

The craziness that is our family room...

 

[1rsw]

Your wife is a serious trooper. You need to give that woman a hug. I just showed those pics to Stacy. Her reply : "I would not go in there. I'd be like, I have places to go, I'm going shopping..."

 

[MadFloyd]

Your wife is a serious trooper. You need to give that woman a hug.

You are so right. Just yesterday when the pilot on our gas stove kept going out and she was frustrated I suggested that maybe we need to consider a new stove and she said she'd rather spend money on 'fixing' the audio...

 

[Bill Hart]

You are so right. Just yesterday when the pilot on our gas stove kept going out and she was frustrated I suggested that maybe we need to consider a new stove and she said she'd rather spend money on 'fixing' the audio...

I gotta meet your wife, Floyd. She's one of a kind. My wife's a sport, and I'm the spender, not her, but I doubt she'd share those priorities. That said, you have plenty of room to fiddle with speaker positioning. (And, I'd like you to get another piece of wire!).

 

[LL21]

If I already had MIT I would try Spectral in a heartbeat.

In a neat twist of irony, while I was searching high and low for adapters to see if I could make my PAD cables work with the GAT/ART combo, my wife arrived home and said "Have you seen these two packages at the front door?". They were Transparent Ref XL cables. Of course they were all XLR cables (apart from the speaker cables) and tuned to my regular pre/amp (Pass XP-10, Lamm M1.2 Ref) so they weren't going to be any help with the CJ gear. I didn't realize they had even been shipped.

So by 9pm I bailed on the CJ stuff, restored my old pre & amp and replaced all the cabling to start burning it in (these are loaners for me to audition but appear to be brand spanking new from the factory). Listening this morning I have to say that these are very good cables. Bass and highs are better than my PAD although midrange isn't as lush.

Regarding the lack of bass on the CJ stuff, what I found interesting is that the bass was more anemic on some material than others - i.e. it was frequency dependent. The Sashas dip to 1.8ohm @80 or 90 hz (or a wider range if you read John Atkinson's measurements) and I think this has to be the culprit. Previous versions of Wilson speakers are much easier to drive (in fact when I was originally interested in Lamm amps both Lamm and Wilson advised me to stay away from the tubed Lamm amps unless I was going with Watt Puppy 8 or earlier - that the Sasha required the hybrid models).

Hey MadFloyd...sorry to hear about the ARTs and the impedance dip...yes, that is pretty tough. I will say, those Transp Ref XL cables are amazing...just upgraded from my 10-yr old second hand Ref cables. Big difference...wait 200 hours...until then it will go up...and down...before it totally evens out beautifully. no idea why, not particularly interested.

CJ/Transp/Wilson do go well together...the irony would be if you put XLR to RCA adaptors on the TA Ref XL just to see what happens with your CJ equipment.

Good luck with all the various choices you have...who knows? you might find yourself perfectly happy with Transp Ref and your Lamm system!

 

[MylesBAstor]

Thinking more. Did you invert absolute polarity since the GAT inverts? Next, stupid as it may be, is there any chance swapped + for - in one channel? If out of phase, bass will go away too.

 

[LL21]

Thinking more. Did you invert absolute polarity since the GAT inverts? Next, stupid as it may be, is there any chance swapped + for - in one channel? If out of phase, bass will go away too.

Hey Myles - good point. Does the ART also invert polarity?

 

[MylesBAstor]

Hey Myles - good point. Does the ART also invert polarity?

No.

 

[MadFloyd]

Thinking more. Did you invert absolute polarity since the GAT inverts? Next, stupid as it may be, is there any chance swapped + for - in one channel? If out of phase, bass will go away too.

Not initially, but I did end up doing it. I didn't hear a difference - and no, there was no chance that one speaker was out of phase. I would clue into that very fast.

Appreciate you mentioning it though, Myles.

 

[Imperial]

We posted at the same time, i was wondering that, Myles, I know electrostats can run the gamut on impedance but I can't remember what the woofer set up is on yours- active?

Paralleling, thread relative..
True, but electrostats mostly ask for current high up in frequency. That amounts to NOT so much current, all in all (because likely the phase angle ain't so steep that high up.. )
What happens then if an amplifier is asked to drive high phase angle deep lo frequency REAL current hunger... if it really must deliver a lot of current, it can run out of it for the higher hz'is.
Then the loudspeaker might sound thin as a result..

So maybe the pre-amp question isn't the right one here. But maybe it's a question of are the amps being taxed too much with the Sashas.
Recap, what would that sound like? Thinning of sound, no matter what pre amplifier you try...

I believe the Sasha presents a load say in the 1.7 to 1.9 ohm range at the lowest point.
But since one is using a tube amplifier , there might be a modulation in the current demand, so the real resistive load might be , seen from the amps perspective, worse...

2 cents, and one dollar.. to the pound.

Imperial.

 

[MylesBAstor]

Paralleling, thread relative..
True, but electrostats mostly ask for current high up in frequency. That amounts to NOT so much current, all in all (because likely the phase angle ain't so steep that high up.. )
What happens then if an amplifier is asked to drive high phase angle deep lo frequency REAL current hunger... if it really must deliver a lot of current, it can run out of it for the higher hz'is.
Then the loudspeaker might sound thin as a result..

So maybe the pre-amp question isn't the right one here. But maybe it's a question of are the amps being taxed too much with the Sashas.
Recap, what would that sound like? Thinning of sound, no matter what pre amplifier you try...

I believe the Sasha presents a load say in the 1.7 to 1.9 ohm range at the lowest point.
But since one is using a tube amplifier , there might be a modulation in the current demand, so the real resistive load might be , seen from the amps perspective, worse...

2 cents, and one dollar.. to the pound.

Imperial.

As I said before the Doshi tube amps drove the Sashas very well at RMAF. Better than any of the other amps last year.

 

[Imperial]

A change to Doshi's will most likely work better than the amps used in MadFloyd's system, yes, I agree.
The difference likely being the output transformers being more suited to the lowish ca 2 ohm load. 90w vs 275w... you would think that the GAT would have no problem. But it's the transformers ability to drive low I guess?

I haven't read all posts, granted, but I'm definetly leaning toward that the GAT, ain't GAT the power for the low load presented by Sasha.. (as the elusive and chilling sonical culprit..)

There is a gain issue with this pairing... The CJ GAT pre at 25db gain, and the Doshi JHOR really sensitive. That's about a 10 - 15db mismatch right there. Worth mentioning I thought..




Imperial

 

[Bill Hart]

Paralleling, thread relative..
True, but electrostats mostly ask for current high up in frequency. That amounts to NOT so much current, all in all (because likely the phase angle ain't so steep that high up.. )
What happens then if an amplifier is asked to drive high phase angle deep lo frequency REAL current hunger... if it really must deliver a lot of current, it can run out of it for the higher hz'is.
Then the loudspeaker might sound thin as a result..

So maybe the pre-amp question isn't the right one here. But maybe it's a question of are the amps being taxed too much with the Sashas.
Recap, what would that sound like? Thinning of sound, no matter what pre amplifier you try...

I believe the Sasha presents a load say in the 1.7 to 1.9 ohm range at the lowest point.
But since one is using a tube amplifier , there might be a modulation in the current demand, so the real resistive load might be , seen from the amps perspective, worse...

2 cents, and one dollar.. to the pound.

Imperial.

Imperial: Hello. Yes, earlier in this thread, there was a discussion that Floyd's amps might be an issue (the hybrid Lamm). But he also had concerns about the bass roll-off in the Lamm line stage (a line stage which I also have, in an entirely different system, and agree). So the problem may be multi-faceted: the difficult load presented by the Sasha (a speaker with which I have no hands-on familiarity) and the line stage (Floyd, as mentioned at the beginning of the thread had tried multiple line stages, some of which did have better bass, but there were other trade-offs in sound).
As to impedance curve of eletrostats, generally, you may be right- I just remembered, having owned alot of Quads over the years, that electrostats could sometimes be tricky, and knew Myles had electrostats and experience with the C-J equipment.
As to current demands, no doubt you are correct, but I'm surprised the C-J can't deliver the required current.
Best,

 

[MylesBAstor]

A change to Doshi's will most likely work better than the amps used in MadFloyd's system, yes, I agree.
The difference likely being the output transformers being more suited to the lowish ca 2 ohm load. 90w vs 275w... you would think that the GAT would have no problem. But it's the transformers ability to drive low I guess?

I haven't read all posts, granted, but I'm definetly leaning toward that the GAT, ain't GAT the power for the low load presented by Sasha.. (as the elusive and chilling sonical culprit..)

There is a gain issue with this pairing... The CJ GAT pre at 25db gain, and the Doshi JHOR really sensitive. That's about a 10 - 15db mismatch right there. Worth mentioning I thought..




Imperial

I think you're confusing products. The GAT is the preamplifier and the ART is the amplifier.

I still haven't bought into the issue is the cj amplifiers (I'm not sure the issue is trying to convert balanced to SE cables either). Their amps have always been able to do bass, dating back to the old Premier 1s (whose main issue was a soft and rolled off upper octave in those days). I'm wondering if Floyd heard the ARTs at the dealers before he brought them home?

FYI, I've never found the gain an issue. The older LP140 Ms had a rated input sensitivity of 0.5 V. The only time the additional gain might be a problem is with some digital front-ends.

 

[Imperial]

Ok. The ART of being prepared, busted.. (blush..)
So, what are the chances that an Anti cable Zero autoformer would be the trick worth trying then?
That would make the job for the ART amps much easier, provided they actually does have the current needed, of course.
The amp would see an 8ohm loudspeaker ohm loudspeaker. Using the 2x impedance doubling effect.
That could be a relatively easy fix, for MadFloyd.

Alternatively...
I'm looking at that table in front of the listening position.
What if the roof bounce and wall bounce of hi-freq reflected content are reflected again up to the ceiling and then down again, giving an overly hot hi frequency balance at the listening seat.
A seat that is "in my book" to close to the real wall... Try removing that table, listening seated say 2 -3 feet closer to the speakers. Do the sit down stand up dance and tell us what you hear.
Standing on a chair at the first reflection point, your head up towards and between those large ceiling beams too. What do you hear up there? I'd also like to know that.

How about some Homework then Madfloyd... are you game, worth a shot?

If it's not the amps, or the pre-amplifier or the cables, then it could be a complex acoustic issue. Also worth looking into, I think.

Imperial (I'll read the thread and ponder.. yes, that's my game plan for tonight.. )

 

[MadFloyd]

As I said before the Doshi tube amps drove the Sashas very well at RMAF. Better than any of the other amps last year.

As they did at Paragon in Ann Arbor last month. If I'm not mistaken, Nick Doshi designed these with the Sashas in mind (e.g. I assume he has a pair).

 

[MadFloyd]

Alternatively...
I'm looking at that table in front of the listening position.
What if the roof bounce and wall bounce of hi-freq reflected content are reflected again up to the ceiling and then down again, giving an overly hot hi frequency balance at the listening seat.
A seat that is "in my book" to close to the real wall... Try removing that table, listening seated say 2 -3 feet closer to the speakers. Do the sit down stand up dance and tell us what you hear.
Standing on a chair at the first reflection point, your head up towards and between those large ceiling beams too. What do you hear up there? I'd also like to know that.

How about some Homework then Madfloyd... are you game, worth a shot?

See the photos in post #143, I am sitting in front of the couch these days.

At one point I had foam on top of the coffee table (when it wasn't so cluttered with accessories ) but removing it for a test makes sense. I know that when I stand versus sit there is a big difference in tonality (more bass near the floor).

I will try this and the other experiment you suggest (standing on chair listening into beam area) and report back in the next few days.

It's an awkward time right now for these types of test though; the Transparent cables are breaking in and even the Pass XP-10 (normally ultra smooth) sounds harsh.

 

[Imperial]

How long have you had you dac? And...
Could you list say, you top 5 test songs/CD's ? Or do you mainly test with vinyl.

I can't find any flaw in your system other than that the speaker ARE underpowered.
Wonderful setup, room and so on. The ceiling beams must be doing something, but that might be negligible in the end.
I would have to hear your system to understand what it is you think is missing or wrong. The ones that have heard your room seems to think your speakers are underpowered.

The ground planes in the power cords might not be totally optimal, since they are of different makes. Again, this might not do squat with the sound..
Your pad cables, are they of the type with the metallic powder as insulator?

You've got a lighting system in this room with dimmers (I think?). A known factor to maybe induce a slight chill to the sound, if on the same ac circuit as source and pre amps.
But again you filters should do away with that, sort of.

I'm thinking this setup sound very good, you just want it to sound in a particular way, a way that is not easy for it to do.
Have you considered putting a picture of Chuck Norris on top of the rack... You seem to have tried just about everything else..

I've got one suggestion... Tri-point earthing... or a equivalently type of product.
That should better the articulation in the bass and so on.. lower the noise floor some. It's the one thing I would have explored that you seem to not have done.


Imperial.

 

[MadFloyd]

How long have you had you dac?

Imperial.

If you're asking about my Berkeley Alpha, probably about 8 months or so... why do you ask?