What is the most musical, fast and accurate subwoofer you have heard?

[stehno]

Hello and good evening to you, Mikem53. I have heard many a sub and this (to me) wreaks of accuracy, timing and speed with subs. The fact that they barely move but can move a waveform that can pound your core. This is one of the very reasons I have taken to the Rhythmik F25's. Hardcore accuracy, speed and precision without any additional flavor or boom (unwanted artifacts).

I feel for you on the loss of your old sub combo. I felt this for years after the release of the VMPS Larger with upgrades and a beefy amp/combo with the Velodyne SMS-1. Rhythmik does not have any 18" offerings but even at extreme levels? You can barely see the massive woofers moving. FWIW.

Tom

I'd be very interested to hear your thoughts on the Rhythmik F25's. BTW, they do make an 18" sub for about the last 18 months or so and I'll probably spring for soonish.

In 2015 I purchased a Rhythmik model E15 since it was more compact in cabinet size. Kinda' regretted the purchase for several years because I couldn't get things dialed in. But it did augment the bass of my VPMS RM-40's which I also never quite got dialed in so it sufficed for what it did. Not too long ago as I was preparing to put the E15 up for sale, I went through Rhythmik's 1 page summary of config suggestions for about the 40th time. Only this time I really really tried to read between the lines and after about the 10th tweak to several of the 8 or 9 toggle switches and dials, I got it. Not much of a clue now which switches and/or dials got me there. More impressive is that the sub has never moved 1-mm since I first took possession so it was all limited to tweaking switches / dials.

Years ago I've had the opportunity to listen to what I consider the most musical bass. And I'm happy to say that this magical dialing-in of the E15 along with some other overall improvements, I'm now getting tremendous enjoyment from the E15's capabilities and not just in the lowest octaves but not unlike that which I heard years ago. It has transformed bass into a tremendously tight, well-defined, well-pronounced, fast, natural, and otherwise quite a musical performer. Not to say what it does for the overall playback presentation including much warmer and more balanced across the frequency spectrum. To put it another way, the E15 never went up for sale.

Honestly, I didn't think a larger sub was capable of this type of musical bass. My VMPS RM-40's have two 9-inches plus a 9 or 10-inch passive radiator per channel but I've also never been able to dial-in these speakers to my room. Nevertheless, I can say with confidence that in this or any other videos I might share, the RM40's bass is augmenting the E15 - not the E15 augmenting the RM40's.

I've included a video sample of the sub well after finally dialed in. Though not perfect I kinda' love the sub now.

What's the most musical fast and accurate sub I've heard? I think generically the answer is, whichever sub one is able to dial-in / tune the best.
---------------------------------
About Bag-End. I never owned a Bag-End 18" infra-sub but I did audition one 20 years ago for about 2 weeks. I didn't know much of anything but it sure did seem well-defined, tight, quite musical, etc. Can't believe I opted for another 18-inch sub because it had more dials. Not smart.

 

[treitz3]

What would you like to know, sir?

It's not the easiest to tune in but when it is dialed in? Wow is an understatement. With ALL aspects of the reproduction. Especially when set up on stands to where the center of the woofers are at the tweeter level.

Tom

 

[Mikem53]

---------------------------------
About Bag-End. I never owned a Bag-End 18" infra-sub but I did audition one 20 years ago for about 2 weeks. I didn't know much of anything but it sure did seem well-defined, tight, quite musical, etc. Can't believe I opted for another 18-inch sub because it had more dials. Not smart.

It was nothing much to look at, for sure.. utilitarian black box. . Bag end products are more for commercial applications, behind the curtains. . Yet the infra sub was compact for an 18” and inconspicuous.. I went for the M&K sub with 2x 12“ active woofers in a push pull configuration.. Was great for HT, very powerful bass.. but not for music.. IME. Live and learn..

 

[stehno]

Sorry I meant to say, I've been thoroughly enjoying the E15 since getting it dialed-in. I'm sure it can do better but it seems I'm in the ballpark now and wanted to share this kinda off-the-chart example. As for the recent Star is Born soundtrack, it has a fair share of tracks similar to this. The entire CD seems well-engineered overall.

And Treitz3, that's good enough for me. I've heard some pretty good things about the F25 so I just wanted your take on it.

BTW, I take it you prefer the F25 over say two Rhythmik 18" subs? Care to share your thoughts?

 

[eggogbacon]

Definitely hasn't got enough drive units

Have you heard it?

I have they will not come up for Sale

 

[LL21]

I have they will not come up for Sale

Wow...congrats! Impressive! What other subs did you consider? What made you get these?

 

[eggogbacon]

Wow...congrats! Impressive! What other subs did you consider? What made you get these?

I had 2 Pc Audio Physic Rhea 2 before , I wanted a bass system that can go up to Min 130 Hz without any problem, Impetus can be used up to 250 Hz , so I didn't look any further ,I am having them set up to work from 120 Hz and in my room they work down to 10Hz together with my ribbon speakers that only goes down to 100 Hz. Impetus play super tight, so I am very happy with my choice ,

 

[ajant]

If you want bass reproduction between 10-20Hz, there are two very important requirements:

1. Your sub is able to produce those frequencies in the first place,
2. The intended location of the sub in your listening room does not cause cancellation of these frequencies at the listening position.

You have only asked one half of the question. The second question is just as important as the first. No point buying a monster sub that makes 10Hz, if this frequency is cancelled at the listening position.

It may be possible to predict the behaviour of the sub from a room diagram, but you would have to ask an expert to do it. For me, I would borrow a sub which is known to be capable of 10-15Hz reproduction, and place it at the listening position. I would then go around the room with a microphone and perform frequency sweeps to find the optimal position of the sub.

By the way - your question is "what is the most musical, fast, and accurate subwoofer". I should point out that the word "musical" is subjective, and the word "fast" does not apply to subwoofers. The only term that has a specific meaning is "accurate".

The reason I point this out is because "musicality" means different things to different people. Some might like the "warmness" of a REL subwoofer, or the punch of a ported sub. Some might like the "dryness" of a servo controlled subwoofer. For me personally I prefer the notes to start and stop when they are supposed to start and stop, with no additional overhang from the subwoofers (because the room will contribute its own!). Some might say that bass like this sounds dry, or lacks impact - which it certainly does because the cone isn't continuing to move after the signal ends. But this is my preference, hence my recommendation for Rythmik subs. If this is not the sound you are after, then I would look towards the REL.I

IMHO, the crossover of the subwoofer must be coherent with the crossover of the main speaker. There is always a phase shift at the crossover point. So, integration can become a bit like the roll of a dice.

In the days before I took over design at Genesis, the main part of the speaker was driven by the main power amp, and the woofers with their servo-controlled bass amplifier would be driven line level by the preamplifier. This means that the low-pass crossover of the bass was totally dissociated from the high-pass crossover of the midrange. The main problem with this is that when the main power amp is changed, the "sound" of the bass does not change. The elephant in the room that no audiophile talked about was that due to group delay in the main power amp, the timing of the bass was completely dissociated from the timing of the midrange. Hence the reputation of "slow" bass.

When integrating a subwoofer to a pair of loudspeakers - if the speaker does not have a high-pass crossover at the bottom of the range, then there is no phase shift. When you have a loudspeaker with ported woofers, this phase behavior is even more difficult to understand. Hence, there will definitely be some phase anomaly at the integration frequency which is simply the low-pass frequency set at the subwoofer.

The separate F and Q settings of some subwoofers like the Rhythmik and Rels will give you more tools with which to help integration.

All the Genesis speakers I design have built-in servo-controlled powered woofers - I manage the integration and coherence between the high-pass passive filter of the mid-bass coupler and the low-pass active filter of the woofers to manage the crossover between these two sets of drivers. Hence, the only time you would use a subwoofer with a pair of Genesis loudspeakers is if you buy one of my bookshelf monitors - and those also have a high-pass crossover for the woofers just so that you CAN integrate a Genesis subwoofer.

Room: Maybe slightly larger than the average Long Island, NY living room with triangular ceiling that peaks at 11 ft.

Listening distance and level: Main speakers 11 ft from chair and ~ 30 to 40 phons. (??) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phon

If the above listening distance/level is sensible and safe, then if I can get robust LOW distortion bass down to 30Hz @ ~ 75db to 80db then presumably I’d be quite happy. And I do plan to measure and treat the room acoustically prior to finishing with room/system EQ via Windows software.

But here’s my big worry: I’m working with a custom designer to finish a speaker build that I was forced to postpone years ago. Below the horn and driver will be an Altec 416-8B in a 3 cu ft sealed box.
https://greatplainsaudio.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/Classic-Series-416-8B-Spec-Sheet.pdf

The boxes were well braced and built by Jim Salk before he retired. Among other things, this 416-8B is famous for its underhung voice coil which the helps to minimize distortion. In a further effort to minimize IM distortion, the original designer also chose the 3 cu ft sealed box size and the amount of this insulation. https://www.bondedlogic.com/ultratouch-denim-insulation/

The intended result was that the Altecs only play down to 70Hz. For below them he chose 15” Acoustic Elegance drivers plus passive radiators in the appropriately sized boxes. He completed this system circa 2017, and AFAIK was very happy with this system for years.

Then I learned this year that he only uses the subs for home theater use, apparently not for music. How could his hearing and/or source material have changed that much to want to give up response from below 70Hz to at least 30Hz? I emailed him about this but have yet to receive replies.

My question is how far up can Rythmik F12 sealed subs play before they would color the sound of these beautiful Altec midwoofers? OTOH, the last thing I’d want to do is to risk porting these cabinets.

Instead, might removing some of the insulation extend the Altecs’ bass response down to perhaps ??Hz without adding much, if any, audible distortion?

In any case, at what ~ ??Hz would crossing with a pair of Rythmik F12 subs ruin the sound stage of my main speakers?

 

[Zeotrope]

Funk Audio in Canada. Nothing I have heard comes close. As a bonus, they will make custom sizes. I am getting a dual driver 12” with a 4000W amp in a few weeks (hopefully!).

 

[Zeotrope]

My question is how far up can Rythmik F12 sealed subs play before they would color the sound of these beautiful Altec midwoofers? OTOH, the last thing I’d want to do is to risk porting these cabinets.

Instead, might removing some of the insulation extend the Altecs’ bass response down to perhaps ??Hz without adding much, if any, audible distortion?

In any case, at what ~ ??Hz would crossing with a pair of Rythmik F12 subs ruin the sound stage of my main speakers?

You can always try and see, but I would advise against removing insulation. But no harm in trying it with and without!

You don’t want a sub to go above 120Hz, as the human ear can localize frequencies above his (although some can localize < 120Hz).

 

[LL21]

Funk Audio in Canada. Nothing I have heard comes close. As a bonus, they will make custom sizes. I am getting a dual driver 12” with a 4000W amp in a few weeks (hopefully!).

I really like Nathan Funk. I also am thinking about a dual-opposing sub custom-designed with Nathan...dual 24" opposing cones in a relatively compact but super heavy cabinet 28" x 28" x 36".

Look forward to hearing how your sub goes!!! Please do post when you have dialed it in.

 

[Zeotrope]

I really like Nathan Funk. I also am thinking about a dual-opposing sub custom-designed with Nathan...dual 24" opposing cones in a relatively compact but super heavy cabinet 28" x 28" x 36".

Look forward to hearing how your sub goes!!! Please do post when you have dialed it in.

Thanks, good to hear your feedback! I’m honestly a bit disappointed at how long it has taken - it is more than 1 year past the date he quoted when I placed the order. That said, no one else is doing what he does, at anywhere near the level. And my horn speakers took 7 years(!) longer than originally quoted to build… so I have come to expect that there are long lead-times at this level.

For now at least, the sub will only be used to playback the LFE channel from movies. I have an active transmission line sub on the main L/R channels. Even though this sub can play well to 20Hz, I learned that it’s not a good idea to mix the LFE channel with the mains, as you will clip the output.

 

[Ron Resnick]

I expect that the new Wilson Audio Submerge will be a very serious subwoofer contender.

But for below 20Hz I find Goebel Sovereign (1 x 18" active), Funk (many options) and Wilson Audio Thor's Hammer (still a current model) (2 x 15" passive) very interesting.

I would have room for only one giant subwoofer, in the middle of the front wall. I don't like the idea of only one subwoofer, as I like stereo woofing. But at 20Hz and below low frequency information probably truly is non-directional and difficult to locate.

 

[andromedaaudio]

Perlisten subs in Portugal ultimate audio.

Coupled to RP lyra

 

[ajant]

Tom, if you want bass reproduction between 10-20Hz, there are two very important requirements:

1. Your sub is able to produce those frequencies in the first place,
2. The intended location of the sub in your listening room does not cause cancellation of these frequencies at the listening position.

You have only asked one half of the question. The second question is just as important as the first. No point buying a monster sub that makes 10Hz, if this frequency is cancelled at the listening position.

It may be possible to predict the behaviour of the sub from a room diagram, but you would have to ask an expert to do it. For me, I would borrow a sub which is known to be capable of 10-15Hz reproduction, and place it at the listening position. I would then go around the room with a microphone and perform frequency sweeps to find the optimal position of the sub.

By the way - your question is "what is the most musical, fast, and accurate subwoofer". I should point out that the word "musical" is subjective, and the word "fast" does not apply to subwoofers. The only term that has a specific meaning is "accurate".

The reason I point this out is because "musicality" means different things to different people. Some might like the "warmness" of a REL subwoofer, or the punch of a ported sub. Some might like the "dryness" of a servo controlled subwoofer. For me personally I prefer the notes to start and stop when they are supposed to start and stop, with no additional overhang from the subwoofers (because the room will contribute its own!). Some might say that bass like this sounds dry, or lacks impact - which it certainly does because the cone isn't continuing to move after the signal ends. But this is my preference, hence my recommendation for Rythmik subs. If this is not the sound you are after, then I would look towards the REL.

Tom, if you want bass reproduction between 10-20Hz, there are two very important requirements:

1. Your sub is able to produce those frequencies in the first place,
2. The intended location of the sub in your listening room does not cause cancellation of these frequencies at the listening position.

You have only asked one half of the question. The second question is just as important as the first. No point buying a monster sub that makes 10Hz, if this frequency is cancelled at the listening position.

It may be possible to predict the behaviour of the sub from a room diagram, but you would have to ask an expert to do it. For me, I would borrow a sub which is known to be capable of 10-15Hz reproduction, and place it at the listening position. I would then go around the room with a microphone and perform frequency sweeps to find the optimal position of the sub.

By the way - your question is "what is the most musical, fast, and accurate subwoofer". I should point out that the word "musical" is subjective, and the word "fast" does not apply to subwoofers. The only term that has a specific meaning is "accurate".

The reason I point this out is because "musicality" means different things to different people. Some might like the "warmness" of a REL subwoofer, or the punch of a ported sub. Some might like the "dryness" of a servo controlled subwoofer. For me personally I prefer the notes to start and stop when they are supposed to start and stop, with no additional overhang from the subwoofers (because the room will contribute its own!). Some might say that bass like this sounds dry, or lacks impact - which it certainly does because the cone isn't continuing to move after the signal ends. But this is my preference, hence my recommendation for Rythmik subs. If this is not the sound you are after, then I would look towards the REL.

I share your preferences for what a subwoofer is supposed to and not contribute to what's heard. But I am curious about what you implied what many rooms will also contribute to the sonic presentation. Would that be varying degrees of boominess from standing waves (room modes) and unwanted reflections? But then how problematic would many rooms be if a.) the room is measured and treated to implement remedial corrections as acoustically as practical (e.g. absorbers, diffusers, bass traps); and b.) if music sources are via server, then room/system EQ software and MCH DACs can also reduce room colorations (e.g. DIRAC Live, REW, Audiolense,. Hapi, Okto, Exasound)?

Also, regarding the Rythmik F12 sealed subs plate amps, while Rythmik, perhaps like most subwoofer brands, does not disclose the schematic diagrams of these amps, has it been confirmed whether the Class AB amp versions have true balanced differential inputs? That is, does the input stage 1.) Utilize a 3-conductor cable where the two stranded wires have equal impedance, measured to the signal ground input. And that each of these wires connect to a 2.) dual transistor symmetrical input stage, thereby providing 3.) common-mode noise rejection and 4.) double the effective input impedance of an unbalanced single state input and thus 5.) twice the output voltage feeding the amp's driver stage?

If yes, and if one has Rythmik plate amps with such balanced diff amp inputs might their higher input impedance help offset much of any gain loss which might have occurred with the use of room/system EQ software vs. the output voltage of most MCH consumer DACs? DACs like the Hapi are among the very few with balanced output voltage in excess of 10v. But most DACs like the Okto and Exasound only output ~ 3.91v. Otherwise, I guess it's one of those things where it's a bit of a crap shoot, though the Okto DAC 8 Pro likely offers sound quality comparable to the Hapi.

 

[ajant]

You don’t want a sub to go above 120Hz, as the human ear can localize frequencies above his (although some can localize < 120Hz).

What worries me is that my mains only go down to 70Hz. And due to this I wonder if using one or more Rythmik 12" sealed subs would be the best approach.

 

[Jägerst.]

I expect that the new Wilson Audio Submerge will be a very serious subwoofer contender.

But for below 20Hz I find Goebel Sovereign (1 x 18" active), Funk (many options) and Wilson Audio Thor's Hammer (still a current model) (2 x 15" passive) very interesting.

I would have room for only one giant subwoofer, in the middle of the front wall. I don't like the idea of only one subwoofer, as I like stereo woofing. But at 20Hz and below low frequency information probably truly is non-directional and difficult to locate.

Lack of directionality in the lower octaves is one thing, the lack of bass sources is another; more bass sources mean an acoustically smoother response, and so I'd try and squeeze in a pair at least - a bit smaller in size, perhaps.

However, I've never been a fan of asymmetrically placed Distributed Array (i.e.: DBA) sub setups coupled in mono. While the bass can be very smooth in response it also has an in-the-head headphone kinda imprinting that just doesn't feel fully natural to my ears. With DBA's I'd prefer symmetrically placed and stereo coupled arrays in a left/right field, having them also symmetrically placed to the main speakers.

The subs mentioned are no doubt very capable, and also very expensive. From easily $10k to $32.5k per sub it's an investment that in multiples will exceed any reasonable price level, I find - even aimed at über high-end - for what's possible to achieve with cheaper solutions in (symmetrical) multiples in this frequency range. If the DIY route is chosen a much more expansive field of design principles will emerge, and with $10k at one's disposal the outcome here could very easily surpass a single Funk Audio sub as the cheapest, pre-developed and assembled solution.

 

[audioguy]

About 10 months ago, I chose to "go to the top" in the sub market, and upgraded to all Ascendo subs: I'm using their 32" Infrasub in the middle rear of my room, and two dual 18's in the front two corners. The 32 has a 45 mm excursion in both directions, dual voice coils driven by 3000 watts per voice coil (6.3" diameter voice coil). And for those who think "big subs can't be fast", I strongly disagree, at least in the case of this monster. Comparing the impulse response of this sub compared to many other well known subs will clearly demonstrate that amongst its other capabilities, speed is high on the list (see image below). And while it has solid output below 7Hz, that is not really where it shines - given the paucity of source material (music or movies) that extend that low.

When properly phase aligned with my front 4 18's, the combination produces the lowest distortion, fastest, cleanest bass I have ever experienced - for both music and movies. In the movie category, there are a number of scenes that demonstrate both the speed and massive air movement produced. In one scene (13 Hours in Benghazi), during one of the gun fight sequences, a powerful long range rifle is shot and not only is the speed startling, but the virtually instantaneous compression of all of the air in the room literally compresses you in the chest.

The real benefit to these subs is not the chest compression of gun shots, nor the frequency extension, but rather how it enables you to hear bass in a recording (or movie) that you have never heard previously. And FWIW, the in room corrected bass response is just a smidge less linear than my previous 8 Seaton F18's, but sounds just the opposite.

I could write paragraphs of the sonic attributes of these subs, but none of that would adequately describe what these subs would do - an in person listening experience is required.

Ascendo also makes a 50" sub and an 80" sub. I was able to hear the 50" in a two channel environment (in a completely untreated room - see photo below) and I was blown away by how musical it was as well. That 50" has been sold for a theater environment but the end user's room is not yet complete. In the photo, I'm the old(er) guy, and the other is the owner of Atlanta Home Theater - and those chairs were in that position for the photo and moved to a more typical location for listening.


And, here is the impulse response of the Ascendo 32" (turquoise) compared to another well known sub - and, no, I will not divulge the name of the other sub.

 

[LL21]

About 10 months ago, I chose to "go to the top" in the sub market, and upgraded to all Ascendo subs: I'm using their 32" Infrasub in the middle rear of my room, and two dual 18's in the front two corners. The 32 has a 45 mm excursion in both directions, dual voice coils driven by 3000 watts per voice coil (6.3" diameter voice coil). And for those who think "big subs can't be fast", I strongly disagree, at least in the case of this monster. Comparing the impulse response of this sub compared to many other well known subs will clearly demonstrate that amongst its other capabilities, speed is high on the list (see image below). And while it has solid output below 7Hz, that is not really where it shines - given the paucity of source material (music or movies) that extend that low.

When properly phase aligned with my front 4 18's, the combination produces the lowest distortion, fastest, cleanest bass I have ever experienced - for both music and movies. In the movie category, there are a number of scenes that demonstrate both the speed and massive air movement produced. In one scene (13 Hours in Benghazi), during one of the gun fight sequences, a powerful long range rifle is shot and not only is the speed startling, but the virtually instantaneous compression of all of the air in the room literally compresses you in the chest.

The real benefit to these subs is not the chest compression of gun shots, nor the frequency extension, but rather how it enables you to hear bass in a recording (or movie) that you have never heard previously. And FWIW, the in room corrected bass response is just a smidge less linear than my previous 8 Seaton F18's, but sounds just the opposite.

I could write paragraphs of the sonic attributes of these subs, but none of that would adequately describe what these subs would do - an in person listening experience is required.

Ascendo also makes a 50" sub and an 80" sub. I was able to hear the 50" in a two channel environment (in a completely untreated room - see photo below) and I was blown away by how musical it was as well. That 50" has been sold for a theater environment but the end user's room is not yet complete. In the photo, I'm the old(er) guy, and the other is the owner of Atlanta Home Theater - and those chairs were in that position for the photo and moved to a more typical location for listening.
View attachment 123409

And, here is the impulse response of the Ascendo 32" (turquoise) compared to another well known sub - and, no, I will not divulge the name of the other sub.

View attachment 123411

Audioguy,

This is fascinating for me and I definitely have some questions! I have used a Velodyne for nearly 30 years consecutively in the system..each generation of system lowering the crossover, but also increasing the air displacement capability and lowering the distortion.

OUR CURRENT SITUATION
Today, we are now contemplating a custom design...dual-opposing 24" cones driven by 44lb neodymium magnets, powered by 8800 watts of power...with 2% distortion in an open field (no walls) at 2m distance...at levels in excess of 95db-100db at 20hz...and probably less than 4% at 80db-85db at 10hz. Displacing 3,165 cubic inches, it would move as much air as 6 Velodyne DD18+.

My expectation is that even though 6 Velodyne's 'seems' excessive, actually having that level of capability simply allows for a far lower level of distortion (and with good DSP) better ability to match the main speakers for a seamless signal.

Further, I am expecting by moving that much air, you get FAR greater sense of venue, realism and foundation.

QUESTIONS
1. Can you describe what happens when you go from 1 18" sub to adding that much more air displacement capability in a home listening room at home listening level volumes?

2. Many of have listened to bookshelves that drive down to 55hz...and then listened again with a well-setup sub that treats the bookshelves as satellites. The sound becomes much bigger, more powerful and for those who dont know there is a sub in the room...the bookshelves are acting like a full range, much larger speaker. Does a massively increased level of air displacement effectively have a similar 'widening'/enlargening effect' on even full range speakers (in our case, the Wilson XLFs)...where the XLFs suddenly are performing like much bigger speakers by creating a bigger sense of venue and foundation?

3. IN the way many note that adding a sub has positive effects on mid and treble as well...do you notice anything in those areas as well as you have continued to upgrade and enlargen the bass capability of your system?

Thanks for your guidance and listening notes! Very excting and congrats.

 

[Kjetil]

A friend of mine has made a Double Bass Array consisting of 12 distributed SEAS L26ROY in small closed enclosures in each end of a “shoebox” dedicated music and video room, driven by the heftiest ICEpower module’s available now.
12 10” drivers to make bass and 12 to kill the rebound. Excellent.