What are the Top Horn Speakers in the World Today? Vox Olympian vs Avantgarde Trio vs ???

[Mike Lavigne]

If your OTLs hadn't broke, you would probably be using Tenor to this day maybe?

a long shot, but not out of the question.

that is a thought that has crossed my mind a few times. but there were a few crossroads for me which might have caused me to have to go away from the OTL Tenors anyway. yet if i kept the Tenors, with modest power levels, then there is a very slight chance that maybe i might have not come to those crossroads. those crossroads inevitability was because at that time i was hungry to explore the possibilities of where music reproduction might go. my musical horizons were expanding. was getting more into jazz and classical, and my room could easily be overdriven already with big music. and that was the elephant in the room.

did my smallish room hold me back? the Tenor 75 watt OTL's not being dependable did cause me to first move to the new Tenor 300 watt hybrids in that room. but turned out the new Tenor Hybrid amps were even worse than the OTL's. those amps never got fully sorted out. the Tenor hybrids were the amps i moved into the new room. issues with those pushed me to try the darTZeel in 2004. and after my initial listening those reminded me of the OTL's more than the hybrids had. better purity. it seemed like you listened thru the hybrids, whereas with the darts they were more a clear window. and nearly the mid range sparkle of the OTL's, yet low noise and linearity in the bass of ss. and i could depend on them.

but let's say the Tenor OTL's were dependable. would i still have felt compelled to have a larger room? and sell my home? and then see the new place with the barn? unknowable. but my gut tells me yes, i would have still wanted a larger room that could do big music........and horns or vintage high efficiency cones were really not on anyone's minds then (or very few minds....especially in North America), so 75 OTL watts was going to be marginal in a larger room with the speakers i had an interest in.

part of this is that the speakers i have used since then have always been very efficient, and had powered bass. with the VR9SE's i had for about a year, i used 2 pair of dart 108's to bi-amp them and they had powered bass. the EA MM3's had powered bass and were 93db @5 ohms, and the MM7's are 97db @7 ohms. so relatively high efficiency has always been a priority so far since i ditched the Wilson in 2001. i want a great first watt and tons of headroom in my amps and that the system can breathe and scale.

if the Tenor OTL's had been dependable in an alternate universe i might still have them today but maybe my next room might have been smaller. i still would have moved and scratched that room building itch i think.

 

[morricab]

a long shot, but not out of the question.

that is a thought that has crossed my mind a few times. but there were a few crossroads for me which might have caused me to have to go away from the OTL Tenors anyway. yet if i kept the Tenors, with modest power levels, then there is a very slight chance that maybe i might have not come to those crossroads. those crossroads inevitability was because at that time i was hungry to explore the possibilities of where music reproduction might go. my musical horizons were expanding. was getting more into jazz and classical, and my room could easily be overdriven already with big music. and that was the elephant in the room.

did my smallish room hold me back? the Tenor 75 watt OTL's not being dependable did cause me to first move to the new Tenor 300 watt hybrids in that room. but turned out the new Tenor Hybrid amps were even worse than the OTL's. those amps never got fully sorted out. the Tenor hybrids were the amps i moved into the new room. issues with those pushed me to try the darTZeel in 2004. and after my initial listening those reminded me of the OTL's more than the hybrids had. better purity. it seemed like you listened thru the hybrids, whereas with the darts they were more a clear window. and nearly the mid range sparkle of the OTL's, yet low noise and linearity in the bass of ss. and i could depend on them.

but let's say the Tenor OTL's were dependable. would i still have felt compelled to have a larger room? and sell my home? and then see the new place with the barn? unknowable. but my gut tells me yes, i would have still wanted a larger room that could do big music........and horns or vintage high efficiency cones were really not on anyone's minds then (or very few minds), so 75 OTL watts was going to be marginal in a larger room with the speakers i had an interest in.

part of this is that the speakers i have used since then have always been very efficient, and had powered bass. with the VR9SE's i had for about a year, i used 2 pair of dart 108's to bi-amp them and they had powered bass. the EA MM3's had powered bass and were 93db @5 ohms, and the MM7's are 97db @7 ohms. so relatively high efficiency has always been a priority so far since i ditched the Wilson in 2001. i want a great first watt and tons of headroom in my amps and that the system can breathe and scale.

if the Tenor OTL's had been dependable in an alternate universe i might still have them today but maybe my next room might have been smaller. i still would have moved and scratched that room building itch i think.

The Tenor hybrids were also not nearly as good sounding. OTL triodes has something that keeps people awake at night marvelling at what they do. No transistor ever did that because basically with the exception of McIntosh, all SS amps are OTL.

Having now owned a couple of OTLs (Silvaweld 100 watt monos, using 6C33C and Transcendent Sound Beast Monos) and heard at length the Graaf GM20 (great sound if 20 watts is sufficient) and an old version of Atmasphere (old version of MA50 and MA1), as well as hearing Einstein and Tenor a few times, I know why their memory haunts you. In the end I found them to be a bit off on tonality but mainly their practical foibles put me off them...probably for good. The one that I am still dying to hear are the Joule Electra amps. They are supposed to be more SET like in tonality (IMO more correct and not as lean) but still with the spooky transparency and presence. Ever hear the Joule Electras?

I owned some hybrids from Sphinx, Einstein and NAT but only the NAT got kind of close to that OTL spookiness...and it took two hours running to get there...I don't have that kind of time to let an amp warmup and couldn't leave it on with 800 watts dissipation.

IMO, Ralph is smoking something funky or his hearing is now dead if he thinks his GaN Class D sounds even remotely as good as an OTL or a SET, which sound pretty different too.

 

[bonzo75]

The Tenor hybrids were also not nearly as good sounding.

Not even close

 

[Mike Lavigne]

The Tenor hybrids were also not nearly as good sounding.

agree.

OTL triodes has something that keeps people awake at night marvelling at what they do. No transistor ever did that because basically with the exception of McIntosh, all SS amps are OTL.

Having now owned a couple of OTLs (Silvaweld 100 watt monos, using 6C33C and Transcendent Sound Beast Monos) and heard at length the Graaf GM20 (great sound if 20 watts is sufficient) and an old version of Atmasphere (old version of MA50 and MA1), as well as hearing Einstein and Tenor a few times, I know why their memory haunts you. In the end I found them to be a bit off on tonality

in my own room i can only speak of the Atma-sphere MA2 Mk2's (i think it was that iteration from memory) i had briefly prior to hearing the Tenor's, the Tenor 75 watt OTL's, and much later in my new room, the Berning 211/845.

of those three the Tenor's had excellent/ideal tonality. and the purity of the Berning's is profound. but that's personal taste and i respect some people like certain transformer signatures. i do too. my Found Music 2a3's were sexy as hell. loved those mercury vapor rectifiers.

but mainly their practical foibles put me off them...probably for good. The one that I am still dying to hear are the Joule Electra amps. They are supposed to be more SET like in tonality (IMO more correct and not as lean) but still with the spooky transparency and presence. Ever hear the Joule Electras?

yes, at shows a couple times. lush, sexy. a big, broad shouldered weighty sound for an OTL (compared to the agile, more neutral Tenor OTL's). not linear. but pure magic. hot. physically imposing.

 

[morricab]

agree.

in my own room i can only speak of the Atma-sphere MA2 Mk2's (i think it was that iteration from memory) i had briefly prior to hearing the Tenor's, the Tenor 75 watt OTL's, and much later in my new room, the Berning 211/845.

of those three the Tenor's had excellent/ideal tonality. and the purity of the Berning's is profound. but that's personal taste and i respect some people like certain transformer signatures. i do too. my Found Music 2a3's were sexy as hell. loved those mercury vapor rectifiers.

yes, at shows a couple times. lush, sexy. a big, broad shouldered weighty sound for an OTL (compared to the agile, more neutral Tenor OTL's). not linear. but pure magic. hot. physically imposing.

Interestingly, I think the smallest SETs, 2A3, 45 etc. are closer in purity and that breath taking OTL sound and with less transformer coloration than most of the big bottle SETs I have heard. Of course they are much more limited in the speaker choice.

 

[Atmasphere]

but let's say the Tenor OTL's were dependable.

For that to happen they would have to use a different power tube. The 6C33 eats sockets. Their socket was designed for the Sylvania 3C33, which was a dual triode transmitting tube, which had half the filament current and didn't run so hot. Sockets used with that tube last indefinitely. OTOH if used with the 6C33 the socket will be doing very well to go 3000 hours. I've seen the tube last longer than that!

If you ever wondered why we continued to use the 6H13/6AS7G, reliability is why.

Even though that tube isn't as rugged as the 6C33, the reliability overall is much better since the sockets with which they are used will last decades (its much easier to replace a tube than it is a socket). As a result amps we made in the 80s and early 1990s still have good sockets.

old version of MA50

The M-50 was replaced by the M-60 in 1992 so if we're being honest your impression is well out of date.

IMO, Ralph is smoking something funky or his hearing is now dead if he thinks his GaN Class D sounds even remotely as good as an OTL or a SET, which sound pretty different too.

Another possibility is your opinion is incorrect. customer comments I'm not the only one using them on horns.

 

[morricab]

For that to happen they would have to use a different power tube. The 6C33 eats sockets. Their socket was designed for the Sylvania 3C33, which was a dual triode transmitting tube, which had half the filament current and didn't run so hot. Sockets used with that tube last indefinitely. OTOH if used with the 6C33 the socket will be doing very well to go 3000 hours. I've seen the tube last longer than that!

If you ever wondered why we continued to use the 6H13/6AS7G, reliability is why.

Even though that tube isn't as rugged as the 6C33, the reliability overall is much better since the sockets with which they are used will last decades (its much easier to replace a tube than it is a socket). As a result amps we made in the 80s and early 1990s still have good sockets.

The M-50 was replaced by the M-60 in 1992 so if we're being honest your impression is well out of date.

Another possibility is your opinion is incorrect. customer comments I'm not the only one using them on horns.

Yes I heard the M50 and the MA1 (not sure which version). Honestly, you haven't done anything new under the sun because I have heard the M60 and S30 under show conditions and they don't sound very different. Perhaps a bit of this or that but not fundamentally different.

While it is a possibility, it is a remote one, about like the odds of our sun going supernova or becoming a black hole.

 

[gleeds]

Interestingly, I think the smallest SETs, 2A3, 45 etc. are closer in purity and that breath taking OTL sound and with less transformer coloration than most of the big bottle SETs I have heard. Of course they are much more limited in the speaker choice.

I am now working with Sasa at Trafomatic on a 45 SET-powered amplifier, which we expect to be quite good. The initial client uses Tobians with 97 dB efficiency and 300B amps in a small room and is seeking greater purity.
My friend Sam Wisnewski of Destination Audio offers an excellent 45 monoblock amplifier worth considering.

 

[PeterA]

I am now working with Sasa at Trafomatic on a 45 SET-powered amplifier, which we expect to be quite good. The initial client uses Tobians with 97 dB efficiency and 300B amps in a small room and is seeking greater purity.
My friend Sam Wisnewski of Destination Audio offers an excellent 45 monoblock amplifier worth considering.

What happened to Destination Audio? I went to a showroom in Gloucester, Massachusetts, and heard some of the speakers three or four years ago and the owner Fred came to my house to listen to my system. I haven’t heard much since then. The speakers and amps had a lot of potential from what I could hear.

 

[Atmasphere]

Yes I heard the M50 and the MA1 (not sure which version). Honestly, you haven't done anything new under the sun because I have heard the M60 and S30 under show conditions and they don't sound very different.

Emphasis added: In this case you are not.

Why: we all know you have no idea on this account, aural memory being what it is. We also know show conditions are dicey at best; IME the room often doesn't sound right until the 3rd day, which is often the last day. That you can remember the 'sound' of a specific amp decades apart (the M-50 was discontinued in 1992) from another one in a different room on a different speaker with different sources and different musical material is more than just a stretch. It obviously didn't happen.

The S-30 has only been shown once at an audio show and you weren't there.

 

[morricab]

Emphasis added: In this case you are not.

Why: we all know you have no idea on this account, aural memory being what it is. We also know show conditions are dicey at best; IME the room often doesn't sound right until the 3rd day, which is often the last day. That you can remember the 'sound' of a specific amp decades apart (the M-50 was discontinued in 1992) from another one in a different room on a different speaker with different sources and different musical material is more than just a stretch. It obviously didn't happen.

The S-30 has only been shown once at an audio show and you weren't there.

Well, guess I got the model wrong...