Visit to Marc C.'s (SpiritOfMusic's) House in England
- Thread starter Ron Resnick
- Start date
Thanks Barry - what you heard does sound like a speaker positioning issue - If they they are forward pointing moving closer together as you say should pull the image together - I think peoples preference for toe in depends on the on axis HF output - if you like a declining fr ( as toole geddes linkwitz et all postulated ) - with quite a few speakers this means listening off axis is the best - of course just a theory
This is the GIK performance - excellent above 400Hz and what that means is you will get increasing levels of reflected sound below that level - the theory is that bass is non directional below about 170 Hz so this reflected sound between 170 and 400 does not correlate with direct sound and crates smearing .
But of course it may not be that significant in practice in this room
It will be very interesting to see how the experiments go
Cheers
Phil
T
Expecting a white paper on this experiment
Phil
The good thing about this hobby is everyone knows where to find you
Expecting a white paper on this experiment
Phil
Just spent a couple of days experimenting with
1. Seating distance to Zus
2. Combinations of GIKs/PETs/GIKs and PETs.
On balance, I'm preferring my seat further back as Barry suggested, but not as far as we chose when he visited.
So 16-17' from Zus, which are 8.5' apart, now toed in front of me.
GIKs just not working out, but I've split the PETs into groups of four, now covering both reflection points (we had inadvertently ended up w only first points covered when seat was moved back).
And further to PJWD Phil's advice, gonna add two more PETs per side on eaves in due course.
--
I really did approach this experiment w as much of an open mind as possible. But for the first time I'm at loggerheads w advice Barry has given me, gonna stick w what seems most palatable to me, despite strong comments to the contrary.
1. Seating distance to Zus
2. Combinations of GIKs/PETs/GIKs and PETs.
On balance, I'm preferring my seat further back as Barry suggested, but not as far as we chose when he visited.
So 16-17' from Zus, which are 8.5' apart, now toed in front of me.
GIKs just not working out, but I've split the PETs into groups of four, now covering both reflection points (we had inadvertently ended up w only first points covered when seat was moved back).
And further to PJWD Phil's advice, gonna add two more PETs per side on eaves in due course.
--
I really did approach this experiment w as much of an open mind as possible. But for the first time I'm at loggerheads w advice Barry has given me, gonna stick w what seems most palatable to me, despite strong comments to the contrary.
I'm wondering if this episode really is a prime example of us all hearing very differently. I don't mean simple preference for horns over boxes...hey, given the right circumstances I'd still have a certain pair of horns in my space.
I genuinely feel I'm eeking out more natural imaging and depth cues with my PETs/sheeps wool mega bass traps fit out over my old GIKs setup.
Barry genuinely feels my greater reverberation times are spoiling my sound.
Not sure if there's much middle ground here for consensus.
I genuinely feel I'm eeking out more natural imaging and depth cues with my PETs/sheeps wool mega bass traps fit out over my old GIKs setup.
Barry genuinely feels my greater reverberation times are spoiling my sound.
Not sure if there's much middle ground here for consensus.
I didn’t lay the blame at longer decay time. That’s like blaming extra gherkins in a McDonalds.
That’s like blaming extra gherkins in a McDonalds.
Fascinating....Seriously tho.... one may over GIK if not careful of revision, I would prefer a slightly lively room, in a somewhat controlled way, over an anechoic chamber !
There are some occasions where I like Big Macs w gherkins, and others I certainly don't. Don't know what to conclude from that. As for acoustics...I didn’t lay the blame at longer decay time.
Apologies for misinterpreting. You did talk a fair bit about increased reverberation times and less apparent damping. I assumed you felt these were at fault.I didn’t lay the blame at longer decay time.
Well, I had a fairly moderate GIK install before. Seems I'm biased twds less treatments rather than more in terms of absorption.
Well, I've really taken to sitting a little further back. Not quite where Barry was liking things, but still a greater distance from box spkrs than I've seen in most installs, at 16'. Very different from where I'm seeing guys like Mike Lavigne settle at 9', effectively closer to Barry's seating distance from his AG Duos horns.
There's no doubt Barry's criticism that my sound effectively locked to the Zus, and kinda disappeared in the central zone creating a W-shaped soundstage was correct, a function partly of my Zus being pretty widely spread at 8.5' apart and not fully toed in to cross in front of me (as Zu recommend).
Sitting further back enables a more holistic and immersive soundfield where the sound is less evident from each spkr, a more continuous wavefront.
Where I maintain my previous opinion and am not convinced by Barry's advice is his skepticism on the PETs. Some of that was down to the fact that side wall second reflection points weren't covered in the more distant seating position Barry preferred. Now with the new settled position I have this sorted more correctly.
Some may also be pure SQ preference. Having been smitten by Audiophile Bill's horns, I can't help but try to eek out better staging, depth cues, imaging. His horns are so good at this, my Zus are works in progress.
And I feel my PETs/custom sheeps wool corner bass traps are getting me some of the magic I hear at Bill's.
My Zus will NEVER be similar to his horns. But they can be less dissimilar.
--
I'm finding Sonny Sharrock/Ask The Ages CD is a great album for confirming how much more open everything is now.
It's a hugely engaging experience, balancing soulful tone and timbre with almost avant garde energy and propulsion.
For the first time I'm getting a proper sense of the drums in space, excellent resolution and purpose on the acoustic bass, and a great balance of verve and tone density/color on the horn and guitar.
The recording depth cues and width have opened up to fill my room even at moderate volume levels, and bass energy/articulation are really well expressed and controlled.
In my old space, but effectively the same core components, the sound was both brash, aggressive and bloated, but I really didn't know better.
Now, especially after 6 years plus of constant exposure to excellent horns based systems, I'm fully aware of my old SQ shortcomings, and turning CDs like this one from a sow's ear to a (facsimile of a) silk purse are absolute signs I've evolved my sound to a level way more musical and naturally resolving than just a few short years back.
I'm now revisiting my 60s Classic Quintet Miles Davis CD boxset and gaining a whole new understanding and enjoyment.
All that remains here is a couple more PETs right and left eaves and three corner bass traps at rear, to complete a cost effective (sub £2.5k) but fully transformational acoustics fit out.
There's no doubt Barry's criticism that my sound effectively locked to the Zus, and kinda disappeared in the central zone creating a W-shaped soundstage was correct, a function partly of my Zus being pretty widely spread at 8.5' apart and not fully toed in to cross in front of me (as Zu recommend).
Sitting further back enables a more holistic and immersive soundfield where the sound is less evident from each spkr, a more continuous wavefront.
Where I maintain my previous opinion and am not convinced by Barry's advice is his skepticism on the PETs. Some of that was down to the fact that side wall second reflection points weren't covered in the more distant seating position Barry preferred. Now with the new settled position I have this sorted more correctly.
Some may also be pure SQ preference. Having been smitten by Audiophile Bill's horns, I can't help but try to eek out better staging, depth cues, imaging. His horns are so good at this, my Zus are works in progress.
And I feel my PETs/custom sheeps wool corner bass traps are getting me some of the magic I hear at Bill's.
My Zus will NEVER be similar to his horns. But they can be less dissimilar.
--
I'm finding Sonny Sharrock/Ask The Ages CD is a great album for confirming how much more open everything is now.
It's a hugely engaging experience, balancing soulful tone and timbre with almost avant garde energy and propulsion.
For the first time I'm getting a proper sense of the drums in space, excellent resolution and purpose on the acoustic bass, and a great balance of verve and tone density/color on the horn and guitar.
The recording depth cues and width have opened up to fill my room even at moderate volume levels, and bass energy/articulation are really well expressed and controlled.
In my old space, but effectively the same core components, the sound was both brash, aggressive and bloated, but I really didn't know better.
Now, especially after 6 years plus of constant exposure to excellent horns based systems, I'm fully aware of my old SQ shortcomings, and turning CDs like this one from a sow's ear to a (facsimile of a) silk purse are absolute signs I've evolved my sound to a level way more musical and naturally resolving than just a few short years back.
I'm now revisiting my 60s Classic Quintet Miles Davis CD boxset and gaining a whole new understanding and enjoyment.
All that remains here is a couple more PETs right and left eaves and three corner bass traps at rear, to complete a cost effective (sub £2.5k) but fully transformational acoustics fit out.
Post#9 And so now I get my beloved tone density, w more effortless spread and spooky quiet calm.
Post#2 Marc has positioned his speakers 8' apart, 4' from the sidewalls and 8' from the front wall. Marc's listening position is 15' from the speakers
Nothing much changed in 4 yrs it appears. You‘ve come full circle, now relax and enjoy the music.
Cheers
Blue58
Post#2 Marc has positioned his speakers 8' apart, 4' from the sidewalls and 8' from the front wall. Marc's listening position is 15' from the speakers
Nothing much changed in 4 yrs it appears. You‘ve come full circle, now relax and enjoy the music.
Cheers
Blue58
Enjoy the music?
Surely some mistake here?
Isn't the hobby all about the journey, the upgrades, the navel gazing, the insanity, the oneupmanship, the narcissism?
Enjoying the music seems such a quaint notion.
Surely some mistake here?
Isn't the hobby all about the journey, the upgrades, the navel gazing, the insanity, the oneupmanship, the narcissism?
Enjoying the music seems such a quaint notion.
I've just splashed out on a dozen classical and jazz LPs and two preorders on career retrospective deluxe CD boxsets...so, yes, relaxing and enjoying the music is in order. I've pretty much come to a halt on music spending since we moved here as I've splurged on system hardware and optimising (and chapel renovations), these recent acoustics changes are amongst last of my serious spends, it is gonna be music for the main part from now on.
Strange you mention this Milan, as I scramble around the subs controls panels at the rear of the Zus...Whatever sounds best is the way to go Marc, find the place where the frequency's come best together. You might have to revisit your sub crossover settings too !
Well, I know I'm getting it right when I tune down my subs contribution.
From 50Hz 5/10 level to now 40Hz 2/10.
I may adjust further when the rear wall cnr bass traps go in next.
From 50Hz 5/10 level to now 40Hz 2/10.
I may adjust further when the rear wall cnr bass traps go in next.
Just got home from a very pleasant day. Two classical concerts in a beautiful church setting on the N. Norfolk coast, separated by an excellent pub lunch. I'm so glad my days of rushed London living are behind me.
So first up was an excellent string quartet playing Bartok and Beethoven.
And then after lunch, solo piano featuring Chopin, Brahms, Beethoven, Scriabin, Liszt, Rachmaninov and Mendelssohn.
We were first row, no more than 10' from the performers.
I'm still not particularly picking up depth cues of hifi style imaging from live classical, but tone, timbre and most of all, dynamics, are the big takeaways, and the data points you can't help sizing up where the sound at home starts to compare, and where it falls far short.
So first up was an excellent string quartet playing Bartok and Beethoven.
And then after lunch, solo piano featuring Chopin, Brahms, Beethoven, Scriabin, Liszt, Rachmaninov and Mendelssohn.
We were first row, no more than 10' from the performers.
I'm still not particularly picking up depth cues of hifi style imaging from live classical, but tone, timbre and most of all, dynamics, are the big takeaways, and the data points you can't help sizing up where the sound at home starts to compare, and where it falls far short.
Sounds like a great day Marc. I miss live music. So, you did not hear/see pinpoint images with sharply defined outlines? What about super black backgrounds?
Not at all, Peter. Then again I was derided a few years back when I also stated I didn't hear one string player in front/behind another, ditto woodwinds.
What is undeniable is the instantaneous scaling of dynamics, not simply as a volume increase, but also as a detonation of energy and shifting of the wavefront.
And the hanging of music in the air, coincidentally super dense and yet light as the air the music transmits thru.
Any other hifi checklist seems inconsequential.
The day was very pleasant, Peter. Live music feels such a bonus.
What is undeniable is the instantaneous scaling of dynamics, not simply as a volume increase, but also as a detonation of energy and shifting of the wavefront.
And the hanging of music in the air, coincidentally super dense and yet light as the air the music transmits thru.
Any other hifi checklist seems inconsequential.
The day was very pleasant, Peter. Live music feels such a bonus.
