Visit to Bending Wave USA--Gobel and CH Precision---state of the art

[Rob181]

Elliot
I know its not your company - we will agree to disagree on business models - I have expressed my views - now you have yours.
As for your condescending last sentence - I have a degree in Business & have my own company - I have extensive knowledge on sustainable business/marketing advantages - also what can & does degrade same.
I will leave it there & wish you a merry Xmas & a prosperous New Year.
Rob

 

[Ron Resnick]

thanks Elliot.

at RMAF i was particularly interested in hearing the CH Precision 'mono-dac', which starts as a 3 box dac....one box for the digital circuits, and one box each for the left and right analog circuits. then you can add a T1 clock generator and up to one extra power supply for each of those 4 boxes. up to a mind boggling 8 boxes for digital, and that is still short a transport and power supply for that. it looked like you had 7 boxes, with power supplies for the dac, and analog boxes. we are somewhere north of 6 figures list price for this digital (no preamp). is that right?

then we have the 3 box CH L1 mono-preamp, and the M1 amplifier, and the very impressive Gobel speakers. those speakers have a sound that is ultra coherent and of a piece in the best sense. that high frequency driver is super fast, yet it's not prominent. it never assaults you. i love those speakers.

it's so hard to determine in a short time in a strange system what is doing what. the room, treatments, speakers, cables, power grid, preamp and source are all variables, as well as the musical choices. then we have my traveling, and hour long freeway drive then start listening within 10 minutes of arrival.

all that said, the sound was amazing; much more impressive than RMAF. the system had tons of headroom, a super low noise floor, and uber detail. i heard way into the music. Elliot is a big piano and guitar fan and much of the music had one or the other. super quick and micro-dynamic. when the bass energy was present i could feel it physically. i did love the music that Elliot played, and it certainly showcased the speed and detail of the system.

the guitar pluck and piano hammer strike's were as clear and open as i have heard, lot's of decay and sense of weight, images floated and popped out appropriately. very holographic and involving. Elliot mentioned that older CD's were especially transformed by the CH digital and i'd have to agree (i enjoy that part of my MSB too).

it was a wow!!! session.

did it dig as deep as my system? did it have that level of authority?

so hard to say with different rooms, and my listening position is more near field. my room is very mature, 14 years verses 2 months of tweaking. i have the Tripoint and Entreq grounding. i have multiples greater driver surface with multiples more power and a much easier to drive speaker.

so the systems are very different.

but i would say that the ultimate CH Precision-Gobel musical viewpoint and the ultimate MSB Select II--darTZeel---Evolution Acoustics musical viewpoint have different presentations and a different feel.

i am very glad that Elliot allowed me the opportunity to hear his wonderful room.

Thank you, Mike, for this very interesting report! I am glad you capitalized on the opportunity you had to visit Elliot all the way across the country!

I think those loudspeakers are extremely interesting conceptually, technically and in practical listening. They tick a lot of my personal favorite design “boxes,” such as largely single driver, M-T-M configuration, cones for the mid-bass on down, and potential four column configuration.

I theorize that you might have found additional weight and authority if Elliot had had the additional two columns of subwoofers in place.

 

[RCottin]

Thank you, Mike, for this very interesting report! I am glad you capitalized on the opportunity you had to visit Elliot all the way across the country!

I think those loudspeakers are extremely interesting conceptually, technically and in practical listening. They tick a lot of my personal favorite design “boxes,” such as largely single driver, M-T-M configuration, cones for the mid-bass on down, and potential four column configuration.

I theorize that you might have found additional weight and authority if Elliot had had the additional two columns of subwoofers in place.

Good evening Ron, I cannot speak but for my experience, but in my system I would not change the coherence across the range that these speakers alone provide for anything; they provide more than enough of what I like alone, and the integration of the components and coherence of sound is the best I have ever heard. What I would say is that they work better in a bi-amp configuration (2xM1). They really benefit from the extra power and control.

 

[spiritofmusic]

It's just a crying shame they have such low sensitivity, demanding heavyweight SS amps.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Elliot, has anyone tried high power, push-pull tube amplifiers (e.g., VAC 450s, VTL Siegfrieds, ARC 750s) on these speakers?

 

[spiritofmusic]

Elliot, the question Id really like to know is if the Aeon brings something more to the party than the Divin.

If it doesn't, and you like the Gobel sound signature, then surely Divin makes more sense w it's ability to be used w lower power amps, opening up more choice of SETs.

 

[GMKF]

Elliot, the question Id really like to know is if the Aeon brings something more to the party than the Divin.

If it doesn't, and you like the Gobel sound signature, then surely Divin makes more sense w it's ability to be used w lower power amps, opening up more choice of SETs.

I'm not Elliot, but the Aeon has the Bending Waver driver which gives advantages in coherency and imaging due to its single driver concept.
Its impulse is faster over a broad frequency band (due to its short membrane "excursion")
It also has a near perfect dispersion characteristics from 150hz to 4000hz on both sides of the speaker because the Bending Wave Driver disperses on both sides.

The Aeon series is smaller so it is simpler to integrate into rooms.

 

[morricab]

It's just a crying shame they have such low sensitivity, demanding heavyweight SS amps.

An instant no go for me

 

[morricab]

I'm not Elliot, but the Aeon has the Bending Waver driver which gives advantages in coherency and imaging due to its single driver concept.
Its impulse is faster over a broad frequency band (due to its short membrane "excursion")
It also has a near perfect dispersion characteristics from 150hz to 4000hz on both sides of the speaker because the Bending Wave Driver disperses on both sides.

The Aeon series is smaller so it is simpler to integrate into rooms.

Tried to like the Manger drivers for all the reasons you have described but in the end found them simply boring to listen to. I have not been impressed at all with the bending wave Goebels but the Divin was quite good.

 

[Al M.]

Elliot
I know its not your company - we will agree to disagree on business models - I have expressed my views - now you have yours.
As for your condescending last sentence - I have a degree in Business & have my own company - I have extensive knowledge on sustainable business/marketing advantages - also what can & does degrade same.
I will leave it there & wish you a merry Xmas & a prosperous New Year.
Rob

Sorry, Rob, I can impossibly see how Elliot's last sentence could in any way be interpreted as condescending (??). As I see it, all he said is that everyone needs to make their own business choices, those who they believe in, based on their personal experiences and inclinations.

 

[Elliot G.]

Well Merry Christmas to all.

Morris our speakers are not Mangers and do not use the same drivers. I see that you are not a fan of SS amplifiers and that is fine . I am not a fan of many products however I would never insult you and your products, especially since I have no experience with them and never heard of them before. Oliver builds different products , the Epoque Aeon and The Divin series, for exactly those reasons. He has clients that like the sound of tubes and want an efficient speaker that can be used with them and he has his core technology and patented stiff bending wave for others that have no such predispositions.
What Mike L heard hear was a full CH Precision system with Aeon Reference and all of our Lacorde cables, His enjoyment and statements are his opinions of his visit. I don't believe you were here with him Morris and perhaps before you decide to bad mouth something you should at least hear it first! I find your comment very bush league and insulting.

 

[Elliot G.]

Dear Ron,
I do not see why a high powered quality tube amp, like those mentioned would don't sound anything but amazing on these speakers. They are easily bi amped and I would like sometime to try sometime for my own curiosity but I don't own any at this time. I just made a major investment in my CH gear which I love.
I think something like 4 ARC REF 160's would be cool to try IMHO

 

[Elliot G.]

Now Robb,
I was not trying to be condescending but rather I said when you do your thing you can do it your way. I could have easily been insulted by your comments and called you the same thing since you have no details on my company, my background, nor Oliver's company and Oliver's background and to my knowledge have never met either of us. I have no idea whether you have any background in this Industry either. I replied with my best explanation to address your question.

 

[Elliot G.]

Dear Spirit, I believe they do. I think that Oliver did an amazing job building the Divin series to give much of what the BW can do and to make it accessible to other forms of amplification other than a high powered SS like the M1.1.
I have both products in my showroom.
I think this is a subject best discussed in person or on a phone call since I am not a reviewer and like everyone I have my preferences.
I have enjoyed having the chance to do what I enjoy most and what I am good at and that is setting them up and getting the most out of the system.
I don't know where you are located but if you have the opportunity I suggest you visit to get the full experience that is just not possible at a show.
Happy Holidays
,Elliot

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Thank you, Mike, for this very interesting report! I am glad you capitalized on the opportunity you had to visit Elliot all the way across the country!

I think those loudspeakers are extremely interesting conceptually, technically and in practical listening. They tick a lot of my personal favorite design “boxes,” such as largely single driver, M-T-M configuration, cones for the mid-bass on down, and potential four column configuration.

I theorize that you might have found additional weight and authority if Elliot had had the additional two columns of subwoofers in place.

Ron,

bass impact and lower octave physicality was top notch and very fast and articulate with the Aeon Reference in Elliot's set-up. nothing apparently missing.

i expect there would be another step forward in scale and authority adding the Baforce subwoofer to the Aeon Reference i heard (maybe for a larger open space). evidently you also add a crossover box for integration too when you add a subwoofer. i don't know the exact integration approach. you and i have discussed the challenges on that subject before.

i certainly appreciate the completely integrated approach of my MM7's. OTOH adding the full meal deal subwoofers in this case come in close to $500k total i think. not for the feint of heart. but likely they deliver appropriately.

 

[Steve Williams]

This is a very interesting thread for me and lucky Mike for having gotten the chance to visit Elliot's new show room. Frankly the speakers , cables and Ch Precision fascinate me and I look forward to getting my chance to visit Elliot

I would say to everyone who has cast some negative remarks about the speakers or set up that I feel it is somewhat unfair to Elliot and all the readers to render opinions if you haven't even had a chance to hear Elliot's new showroom. I'll base my opinions when I get to hear it as well as gleaning information from those who have heard it. Those who haven't IMO are just creating unnecessary noise

 

[Elliot G.]

A little Christmas gift for all the readers of this thread.
Go get Bruce Springsteen on Broadway its an incredible album. I am a fan of the Boss and have seen him and the E Street band numerous times from small to full stadium shows.
This is the man, a mike and his guitar half spoken word telling his stories and his songs stripped down and acoustic. His voice may have seen better days but the raw emotion and his emotional honesty shine on through IMHO a Tour De force of a recording.
Happy Holidays to my friends and those that are haters a very good night!

 

[Mike Lavigne]

A little Christmas gift for all the readers of this thread.
Go get Bruce Springsteen on Broadway its an incredible album. I am a fan of the Boss and have seen him and the E Street band numerous times from small to full stadium shows.
This is the man, a mike and his guitar half spoken word telling his stories and his songs stripped down and acoustic. His voice may have seen better days but the raw emotion and his emotional honesty shine on through IMHO a Tour De force of a recording.
Happy Holidays to my friends and those that are haters a very good night!

just downloaded the 24/48 file from HD Tracks. took 10 minutes, another 10 to load on my NAS....2.63 gb.

http://www.hdtracks.com/springsteen-on-broadway

listened to the first three tracks so far.......love the vibe and intimate performance. as Elliot says......involving and powerful. really fine sonics. i can easily imagine the sound Elliot is getting and understand his enthusiasm for this recording.

on repeated listening mostly i'll likely 'play list' out the stories. i enjoy them so far but have to be in the mood for them.

thank you again, Elliot, for the music rec. i might buy the vinyl version too.

 

[morricab]

Well Merry Christmas to all.

Morris our speakers are not Mangers and do not use the same drivers. I see that you are not a fan of SS amplifiers and that is fine . I am not a fan of many products however I would never insult you and your products, especially since I have no experience with them and never heard of them before. Oliver builds different products , the Epoque Aeon and The Divin series, for exactly those reasons. He has clients that like the sound of tubes and want an efficient speaker that can be used with them and he has his core technology and patented stiff bending wave for others that have no such predispositions.
What Mike L heard hear was a full CH Precision system with Aeon Reference and all of our Lacorde cables, His enjoyment and statements are his opinions of his visit. I don't believe you were here with him Morris and perhaps before you decide to bad mouth something you should at least hear it first! I find your comment very bush league and insulting.

First , I never “bad mouthed” the speakers you represent , I simply stated that one didn’t do it for me and the other was much more to my liking at least from what I have heard from them so far...and this includes with CH precision gear.
Second, I am fully aware the Goebel bending wave driver is not a Manger but the technology is certainly quite similar. I also stated I never found the Mangers to float my boat either...again my opinion and one based on hearing them a dozen times at least.

Given what I have heard from the Divin I don’t hear any exceptional advantages of this bending wave driver over other technologies...just another idea that works to make sound. The Divin, other than its size, was pretty impressive sounding but I would like to hear it with good tubes.

 

[adyc]

First , I never “bad mouthed” the speakers you represent , I simply stated that one didn’t do it for me and the other was much more to my liking at least from what I have heard from them so far...and this includes with CH precision gear.
Second, I am fully aware the Goebel bending wave driver is not a Manger but the technology is certainly quite similar. I also stated I never found the Mangers to float my boat either...again my opinion and one based on hearing them a dozen times at least.

Given what I have heard from the Divin I don’t hear any exceptional advantages of this bending wave driver over other technologies...just another idea that works to make sound. The Divin, other than its size, was pretty impressive sounding but I would like to hear it with good tubes.

Not all bending wave drivers are born the same. It is the same as all cone, planar and horn.. You did mention you are not impressed at all with the bending wave Goebels in your previous post. Can I ask on what basis? Did you hear Aeon speaker?