Vintage amps VS today's amps

[Thieliste]

Hi guys,

What i mean by vintage amps is Threshold SA/1, Mark Levinson ML2, Pass Aleph 0 type of amps.
I'd like to know if some of you had the opportunity to compare great vintage amps in your system against some of today's amps like Gryphon Essence, Pass XA series, Vitus, SS-SM, Ayre and many more.
Are modern amps that much better than great vintage amps ?
Please share your experience.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Member JimFord recently acquired two different vintage Mark Levinson amplifiers for his PBN M777 loudspeakers.

JimFord might be able to shed some light on your question.

 

[Thieliste]

Member JimFord recently acquired two different vintage Mark Levinson amplifiers for his PBN M777 loudspeakers.

JimFord might be able to shed some light on your question.

Thanks Ron, also if some of you have experienced pairing a great vintage amp with a modern linestage i'd like to know the results.

 

[LL21]

Hi guys,

What i mean by vintage amps is Threshold SA/1, Mark Levinson ML2, Pass Aleph 0 type of amps.
I'd like to know if some of you had the opportunity to compare great vintage amps in your system against some of today's amps like Gryphon Essence, Pass XA series, Vitus, SS-SM, Ayre and many more.
Are modern amps that much better than great vintage amps ?
Please share your experience.

I remember hearing Krell FPB700 and 600?s, ML 33 (not the massive one) in comparison with then-current MBL Ref Monos, ARC Ref Monos, Krell Evo 1. And I have compared these later to Boulder 2000 series and Gryphon Antileon, Colosseum and Mephisto.

In the older generation of amps, there was a lot to like, but where I think the new generations won me over was in the refinement and noise floor. There was something in the treble and mids of those older gen amps which felt slightly brittle in comparison to the latest Mephisto for example. I also felt that the noise floor was higher which obscured both a level of detail but also did not give as much of the sense of music emerging from the stage.

 

[DasguteOhr]

I remember hearing Krell FPB700 and 600?s, ML 33 (not the massive one) in comparison with then-current MBL Ref Monos, ARC Ref Monos, Krell Evo 1. And I have compared these later to Boulder 2000 series and Gryphon Antileon, Colosseum and Mephisto.

In the older generation of amps, there was a lot to like, but where I think the new generations won me over was in the refinement and noise floor. There was something in the treble and mids of those older gen amps which felt slightly brittle in comparison to the latest Mephisto for example. I also felt that the noise floor was higher which obscured both a level of detail but also did not give as much of the sense of music emerging from the stage.

I think if they check the old amplifiers and replace them with new caps and resistors, the difference will be marginal. In the past, the measurements were no worse than they are today.There has already been further development in the components, but I don't think so in the circuitry.

 

[adrianywu]

I am very familiar with the ML2. I don't think technology has progressed that much since then, except for the development of class D amps. The output devices can be upgraded to the most modern units. These amps also need to be recapped every so often, depending on how much it is used. The large PS caps are rated 2000 hours, which is not much if you listen on average 10 hours a week. That means four years. Being class A, they get quite hot, which shortens the life of components. With the right speakers (Quad ESL especially), they have a magic that is missing in many other amps.

 

[Thieliste]

Some of you might remember this beast.

 

[ssfas]

View attachment 118001 View attachment 118002
Some of you might remember this beast.

That's a pussycat.

Colin Wonfor's masterpieces. The larger one is 300W Class A solid state. It's about 6 feet tall.

My son uses his famous 1980s Claymore integrated amplifier and I had one of his phono amps. He also started the Tellurium Q cable company and designed all the cables.

 

[audiopro92]

Hi guys,

What i mean by vintage amps is Threshold SA/1, Mark Levinson ML2, Pass Aleph 0 type of amps.
I'd like to know if some of you had the opportunity to compare great vintage amps in your system against some of today's amps like Gryphon Essence, Pass XA series, Vitus, SS-SM, Ayre and many more.
Are modern amps that much better than great vintage amps ?
Please share your experience.

High-End audio equipment today that costs a lot is often made with the same kind of sensibilities as top-notch vintage audio gear.
Back then, famous brands in Japan such as Kenwood, Sansui, Sony, Victor and Pioneer produced top-notch gear that can still compete when compared to state-of-the-art today. I have auditioned or owned probably dozens of amplifiers and source components over the years; most of which have been vintage (90s - late 90s). KRELL industries is also a superb brand/company. I'm talking about the very best these companies could muster up; and for top-dollar.


Short signal paths, keeping internal wiring to a minimum (or high purity tinned copper to prevent oxidation), using the best quality/reliable parts, proven engineering methods, proper internal damping, and design theory = You were getting exactly what the product description promised.

Nowadays, there is so much fluff in the industry - including but not limited to garbage like $99 DACs or headphone dongles - which supposedly measure and sound better than full-size source components. When aggressive cost-savings are applied to audio components and measurements alone are the focus, the sound quality will be poor. Usually full of of 2nd, 3rd, and sometimes even 4th order harmonic distortions and non-intentional colorations. A null test and audio file output comparators can show you the real capabilities of the electronics. Unfortunately, such reviews do not show us either of these measurements for source components... I wonder why

There is also rise time, slew rate, damping factor, frequency response, bandwidth (usually at 1w into 8 ohms at a certain power rating etc.)
The above are not typically seen in objective reviews - yet they can definitely influence the overall sound of the electronics.

Lastly, I'd like to highlight SNR and SINAD:

Comparative Examples of Noise Levels - IAC Acoustics

In my experience, audio equipment that measures okay within the range we listen to AND made without cost savings in mind will sound infinitely better than audio equipment that merely provides exceedingly low THD and high SINAD numbers. We also must consider how loud we listen. Beyond a certain point, chasing better numbers doesn't lead to greater audio quality - subjectively or objectively speaking. Just my 2 cents!

- DMK

 

[sbnx]

I have a few older amps. Jeff Rowland model 5, a pair of Jeff Rowland Model 6’s and a Threshold T400. I still listen to the model 6’s frequently. Have t heard the threshold in a while. Might have to boot it up this weekend.

 

[LarryK]

I ran a Sumo Gold Class A amplifier for years. I had it completely rebuilt.

It sounded good but it would hit its thermal cutoffs during summer and I had to run two noisy fans to cool it.

My Gryphon Colosseum is head and shoulders above it in terms of noise floor and smoothness, to say nothing of heat management.

Still, I’m grateful for all the years I ran the Gold. It showed me what it was to listen to a Class A amplifier. After that, there was no going back.

Once, when I switched it out for a Class AB amplifier, my wife said she could hear the difference. Miracles happen, I tell you.

 

[analogsa]

The large PS caps are rated 2000 hours, which is not much if you listen on average 10 hours a week.

Rated at 2000hrs @85° C. For every 10° below that capacitor life doubles. Realistically, even the hottest heatsink does not exceed 60° C and cap temperature is very unlikely to ever reach 55° in any audio equipment. With the possible exception of one French amp

 

[analogsa]

Imho, current crop of amps are head and shoulders above the best from 30 years ago in resolution and speed, especially in the upper frequency ranges. Which is not very surprising as the old amps had to make early digital listenable.