Upgrade prioritization

[rockitman]

Making arrangements for a visit with Jim.

I also think in order to get the best out of my system, I am going to have to bite the bullet and do some serious reconfiguration of my room. Basically, I am very restricted by all the gear I have crammed between my speakers (see pics - there is another rack behind the main rack with power conditioners, music server and processor). I am thinking of moving my main rack to the sidewall and just keep 2 poweramps (and may be one powerconditioner for each monoblock amp + the bass module amplifier of the MM3), and my center speaker at the front wall. I would need to move some gear (power conditioner, processor and music server) to an adjacent room and make a conduit to run cabling through the wall to in order to make this happen. This would be a pretty major operation, but it can be done. Any thoughts about the benefits of moving the bulk of my gear from the rack between the speakers to the sidewall?

View attachment 9532

Personally, your rack is so low to the ground, I don't think you will get much of a benefit moving stuff to the side, especially since you don't use a turntable.

 

[edorr]

Personally, your rack is so low to the ground, I don't think you will get much of a benefit moving stuff to the side, especially since you don't use a turntable.

I'll be discussing the benefits (or lack thereof) of moving the rack with Jim this evening, but thanks for the input. I would prefer not doing it.

 

[Frank750]

I'll be discussing the benefits (or lack thereof) of moving the rack with Jim this evening, but thanks for the input. I would prefer not doing it.

I moved my rack with my front end from just outside my room and put it directly between my speakers a couple of weeks ago. I was troubleshooting and wanted to remove my 8M pair of MIT interconnects from the equation. I didn't lose any center image focus or depth of soundstage. I do have two 8', 16" round tube trap stacks in the center directly behind the double wide 42" high stand but I'm very happy with the results. I made the arrangement permanent by ordering a 2M pair of MIT ICs and trading the 8M pair to the dealer.

 

[edorr]

I moved my rack with my front end from just outside my room and put it directly between my speakers a couple of weeks ago. I was troubleshooting and wanted to remove my 8M pair of MIT interconnects from the equation. I didn't lose any center image focus or depth of soundstage. I do have two 8', 16" round tube trap stacks in the center directly behind the double wide 42" high stand but I'm very happy with the results. I made the arrangement permanent by ordering a 2M pair of MIT ICs and trading the 8M pair to the dealer.

Good input. Two more votes and I'll ditch the idea completely.

One other consideration though. If I move the rack to the side wall, it will be right underneath my home main electrical panel. I will have access to a 50A dedicated circuit (installed for a kiln I never use) for the components in the rack, with just a few feet of copper from the panel. So I suspect I will get a better power. No idea if this would yield any audible benefit, but it is an additional consideration.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

have you hunted down the best recordings, masterings, pressings of all your favorite music? That would make a lot more difference than anything you've mentioned.

Tim

 

[edorr]

have you hunted down the best recordings, masterings, pressings of all your favorite music? That would make a lot more difference than anything you've mentioned.

Tim

I agree. The single most important variable determining sound quality is recording quality. However, for 99% of the music I listen two there is one version of a CD available so I have no control over this variable.

 

[asiufy]

edorr,

When I moved my rack from between the speakers to the side, other than the better soundstaging, what improved the most was the power amp. Before, it was plugged along with all the other gear, in a dedicated 32A section. Enough juice, sure, but it was being shared. Once I moved the pre, digital, turntable, etc. to the side, with their own 2x32A link, the amp got the ol' 32A all for itself, and it was a revelation.
This is definitely something you should try, specially since I see you run your amps through a conditioner of sorts. If you move things to the side wall, prepare just a single dual outlet for your amps there in back, and my guess is that you'll see a tremendous improvement, with no conditioning whatsoever.


alexandre

 

[dallasjustice]

3 RPG modex plates would take your room to another level for sure and stay within your budget.

None of the other things under consideration would come close.

 

[MadFloyd]

3 RPG modex plates would take your room to another level for sure and stay within your budget.

None of the other things under consideration would come close.

Interesting product; if it wasn't RPG I would be highly skeptical. Have you experienced the product's benefits?

 

[PeterA]

3 RPG modex plates would take your room to another level for sure and stay within your budget.

None of the other things under consideration would come close.

That's pretty definitive. Have you heard a system before and after Jim Smith has voiced it?

 

[microstrip]

I also vote for moving the system to the side wall. For me listening to music must engage some form of suspension of disbelief and I find it much easier when there is not system between the speakers. And it is not only psychological - the sound that reflects from the walls, ceiling and floor will be reflected in this large system facing you. You are paying a lot of money for speakers with an optimized shape to disappear acoustically and have a sound radiator in the middle of the room.

On a extremely personnel view I would also have a dark curtain hiding the large white screen - perhaps color matched to the very nice picture on the right wall.

 

[edorr]

Quick update. Spend 30 minutes on the phone with Jim. He will come down to listen to my system next week and advice on any room configuration changes ( including moving rack, treatment etc.). Once changes have been made (if any), we'll do a full blown one day voicing session. Very interested to hear how good / bad my system currently sound compared to his reference, and how much room for improvement there is using existing hardware. Of course, I could not resist and ordered caps 3.0 and powersupply, but I promise this is the last I spend on hardware before sorting out the room....

 

[Nyal Mellor]

Interesting product; if it wasn't RPG I would be highly skeptical. Have you experienced the product's benefits?

Really? Why be skeptical? Is acoustics such a black art?

Speakers and room. Those are the main things. Everything else sure it makes a difference but those are they key things for me.

DallasJustice would probably say DACs too, he likes those I worked with him last year on his room, since then he has taken things to another level, all by himself mostly thanks to the knowledge and understanding imparted during our work together. I think he has 4 modex plates if not more. I was bugging him to get some for the longest time, finally he relented!

I would caveat it by saying that really to acoustically treat a room you have to understand the issues and then craft the solution to fit....although on the other hand the modex plates are awesome with no downsides even when blindly applied except cost and physical size (not depth though, they are only 4" thick).

 

[edorr]

edorr,

When I moved my rack from between the speakers to the side, other than the better soundstaging, what improved the most was the power amp. Before, it was plugged along with all the other gear, in a dedicated 32A section. Enough juice, sure, but it was being shared. Once I moved the pre, digital, turntable, etc. to the side, with their own 2x32A link, the amp got the ol' 32A all for itself, and it was a revelation.
This is definitely something you should try, specially since I see you run your amps through a conditioner of sorts. If you move things to the side wall, prepare just a single dual outlet for your amps there in back, and my guess is that you'll see a tremendous improvement, with no conditioning whatsoever.


alexandre

Power is the big wildcard in this potential move. I currently have a bunch of equipment all spread across two ps audio P5 regenerators each on a dedicated circuit, and my MM3 bass modules on the dirty "basement" circuit. If I move the rack, I have the two dedicated circuits wired to the front wall, but in addition to the two monoblocks, I need to power my (active) center channel. I would probably move the two monoblocks to one circuit (try with and without P5 regenerator), and use the other circuit for my center channel and the MM3 bass modules.

The main rack would move to its own 50A dedicated circuit. This is unfortantely a pretty major undertaking, and not something you just give a try and move your stuff back to where it was before if it does not pay off. I'll be relying heavily on Jim's advice after he has mode some initial observations next week.

 

[Jim Smith]

That's pretty definitive. Have you heard a system before and after Jim Smith has voiced it?

PeterA,

I have to assume that he wasn't referring to voicing being inferior to to the Modex plates.

They are excellent, as is most of the RPG line.

Whether or not they can reconstruct a compromised soundfield on their own, now that's another question entirely.

 

[Bill Hart]

Power is the big wildcard in this potential move. I currently have a bunch of equipment all spread across two ps audio P5 regenerators each on a dedicated circuit, and my MM3 bass modules on the dirty "basement" circuit. If I move the rack, I have the two dedicated circuits wired to the front wall, but in addition to the two monoblocks, I need to power my (active) center channel. I would probably move the two monoblocks to one circuit (try with and without P5 regenerator), and use the other circuit for my center channel and the MM3 bass modules.

The main rack would move to its own 50A dedicated circuit. This is unfortantely a pretty major undertaking, and not something you just give a try and move your stuff back to where it was before if it does not pay off. I'll be relying heavily on Jim's advice after he has mode some initial observations next week.

I've read mixed things about the sound of the PS Audio re-generators. I gather that if your power is really compromised, they could yield a real improvement, but wonder if you'd like the system better without them? Food for thought, particularly if you are willing to have an electrician help you reconfigure some of your AC.

 

[edorr]

I've read mixed things about the sound of the PS Audio re-generators. I gather that if your power is really compromised, they could yield a real improvement, but wonder if you'd like the system better without them? Food for thought, particularly if you are willing to have an electrician help you reconfigure some of your AC.

I can honestly say that the original powerplant premier (B-stock $1200) was the single biggest upgrade per $$$ spend in the last five years in my system. When I reconfigure my system I will try a few new variants with and without regeneration for the monoblocks, but for the source components and preamp it is a no brainer.

I won't need an electician, because the 50A circuit is already installed for powering a kiln. I am thinking of custom terminating a high grade powercord with the right plug, or getting an additional regular outlet installed on that circuit.

 

[rbbert]

I also vote for moving the system to the side wall...

Although (because?) my component shelf is small (just a disc player, laptop, DAC and integrated amp) and located about 30" behind the plane of the speaker fronts, I noticed a significant sonic improvement when I moved it off the sidewall to its present location behind and between the speakers.

 

[MadFloyd]

Really? Why be skeptical? Is acoustics such a black art?

Speakers and room. Those are the main things. Everything else sure it makes a difference but those are they key things for me.

DallasJustice would probably say DACs too, he likes those I worked with him last year on his room, since then he has taken things to another level, all by himself mostly thanks to the knowledge and understanding imparted during our work together. I think he has 4 modex plates if not more. I was bugging him to get some for the longest time, finally he relented!

I would caveat it by saying that really to acoustically treat a room you have to understand the issues and then craft the solution to fit....although on the other hand the modex plates are awesome with no downsides even when blindly applied except cost and physical size (not depth though, they are only 4" thick).

I'm no acoustics expert by any means, but from what I have personally experienced, it takes a lot of bass traps to make a difference in a typical room and usually the bass traps need to be fairly large. I have tried one smaller product that had zero effect that I could detect/measure so it's hard not to be skeptical about something as small as the product in question. And even with the larger bass traps, I can't help but feel that getting the speakers in the exact right position would have a larger effect on the overall presentation.

 

[MadFloyd]

I can honestly say that the original powerplant premier (B-stock $1200) was the single biggest upgrade per $$$ spend in the last five years in my system. When I reconfigure my system I will try a few new variants with and without regeneration for the monoblocks, but for the source components and preamp it is a no brainer.

I won't need an electician, because the 50A circuit is already installed for powering a kiln. I am thinking of custom terminating a high grade powercord with the right plug, or getting an additional regular outlet installed on that circuit.

Funny, I tried a Power Plant Premier and it made virtually no difference in my system. I then tried a Shunyata V-Ray II and it made a huge (positive) difference. I guess it depends on the system and the quality of the electrical power.