turntables; high level anti-resonance----active (Herzan) platforms, Minus K, air bladder (Stacore) platforms, or others?

[DasguteOhr]

Thanks for the write-up and pictures about refurbishing your Thorens 124. Appears to be some intricacy with a complete dissasemble. Did you do the woodwork yourself? It looks nice.

Do you know which particular NTI meter you used?

I don't quite understand about the air suspension. Is that the footers under the slate base?

Thank you,I did the woodwork myself, in a friend's carpentry workshop.
I use nti xl2 for mesurements

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www.thomann.de

the air suspension only works correctly with a certain weight on the three feet. it blocks all vibrations above 3.5hz

 

[tima]

Thank you,I did the woodwork myself, in a friend's carpentry workshop.
I use nti xl2 for mesurements

thanks for the follow-up.

 

[Seismion]

and more than a few phono stages pick up the noise from a normal industrial grade SMPS. some dacs too. any gain stage is vulnerable. reading an electron microscope might not be effected by a SMPS; but our ears are more sensitive to the finer degrees of performance. even power cords and resonance control on the power supply matters.

i have 5 Herzan based active units with quite involved Linear power supplies and everything matters.

Yes, I get the point, that's totally understandable. Thanks for clarifying!
That's why I think it was a good idea to consult this forum first, before bringing out a special audio version of our isolator. The LInear power supply is certainly on our to-do list now.
May I ask, is this standard to the Herzan isolators?

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Yes, I get the point, that's totally understandable. Thanks for clarifying!
That's why I think it was a good idea to consult this forum first, before bringing out a special audio version of our isolator. The LInear power supply is certainly on our to-do list now.
May I ask, is this standard to the Herzan isolators?

no; the LPS i use is not a Table Stable or Herzan product. it's purpose-built by Taiko to work with the Herzan..

i only have personal experience with the Herzan 'TS' series active products myself; except for back in 2002, i heard a Halcyonics unit in my room which was what got me interested in active to begin with.

the target for active performance is the Taiko Tana 'system'; which starts out as a Table Stable/Herzan 'TS' unit; then gets an added 10mm top layer of panzerholtz to the top plate, a rubber membrane and a Taiko Daiza shelf on top. this 'system' results in full range attenuation; not just the bottom octave where active flourishes. to top it off it gets a panzerholtz enclosed exotic linear power supply. i have 5 of these 'systems' in my system. my whole signal path is covered with active.

TANA 150 & 140 ACTIVE ANTI-VIBRATION PLATFORMS – Taiko Audio

taikoaudio.com

many people use various active devices and multitudes of tweaks to them. lots of different power supply choices.

 

[TLi]

The standard power supply inside Herzan TS-140/150 is switching. There is an option from Herzan to allow external power supply.

What I did in my TS-150 was to connect a DC wire to the mother board, bypass the original power supply. A high quality linear 12V supply is used to drive it. The difference is easily audible.

Accurion i4 uses external power supply, so very easy to change to linear one except it uses a rare plug which I need to order online. Accurion Nano 40 and Herzan AVS system have integrated switching power supply which cannot be easily bypassed.

 

[Seismion]

no; the LPS i use is not a Table Stable or Herzan product. it's purpose-built by Taiko to work with the Herzan..

i only have personal experience with the Herzan 'TS' series active products myself; except for back in 2002, i heard a Halcyonics unit in my room which was what got me interested in active to begin with.

the target for active performance is the Taiko Tana 'system'; which starts out as a Table Stable/Herzan 'TS' unit; then gets an added 10mm top layer of panzerholtz to the top plate, a rubber membrane and a Taiko Daiza shelf on top. this 'system' results in full range attenuation; not just the bottom octave where active flourishes. to top it off it gets a panzerholtz enclosed exotic linear power supply. i have 5 of these 'systems' in my system. my whole signal path is covered with active.

TANA 150 & 140 ACTIVE ANTI-VIBRATION PLATFORMS – Taiko Audio

taikoaudio.com

many people use various active devices and multitudes of tweaks to them. lots of different power supply choices.

That's indeed a sweet system, impressive!

Yes your remark is correct, the active control forces are mainly used to improve the low-frequency range, while systems like Accurion and Herzan rely on steel coil springs for passive suspension (for Accurion I know for sure, Herzan I would also believe?). These steel springs of course are very weakly damped, and besides they have some higher natural frequencies (in fact, they have an infinite number of them). These low-damped natural frequencies then occur as spikes in the transmissibility curve, which of course is unwanted.

Our isolators feature a honeycomb-reinforced top-plate, which significantly adds damping beside stiffness. More importantly, our isolator does not use such steel coil springs, but rather some rubber-metal parts. While this makes low-frequency isolation a little harder (but we can overcome this by our sophisticated sensors and active control), it should have much less of the above mentioned problems with higher resonances.

 

[christoph]

For me, I have found the best use of active isolation platforms is for power supplies and other static (non-moving) hi fi components (DAC's, P.S.'s, phonostages, ect). I still use my compact HerzanTS-140 for a few power supplies (main pre ps, RTR PS and Allnic Phono tube PS. My AVI units that were integrated into a purpose built table for the AS2000 units have not been in the system since I determined they were harmful to the sound in "MY" TT set-up. I should probably try to sell them back to Herzan. Barely 50hrs of use. View attachment 86053

Hi Rockitman
VERY nice to read from you after a very long time

 

[mtemur]

i dismantled and cleaned my thorens 124, then i placed it on the four bolts and attached a tonearm board.
View attachment 86092 View attachment 86093
nti placed the measuring head on the tonearm board and started the engine. I was shocked how many noises there are. so all the bearing was caught and replaced. new sinther bronze and teflon bearing for spindle, motor and idler wheel. that made about 11-12db less noise.
I was lucky that someone lent me the measuring device, it is extremely expensive.
all of this makes it a very good turntable, i don't need a new one anymore, it will be with me until the end of my life

congratulations, it looks great and I'm sure sounds great too. when I was using Thorens TD124 I wasn't happy with speed stability but it was a long time ago. do you have a chance to check yours' wow&flutter? and one other thing; as far as I can see from the pictures you removed the plinth springs and used rigid spikes instead underneath. this way it became a non-suspended TT letting you use separate tonearm towers. do you get any feedback with a quick tap test to stand?

 

[DasguteOhr]

congratulations, it looks great and I'm sure sounds great too. when I was using Thorens TD124 I wasn't happy with speed stability but it was a long time ago. do you have a chance to check yours' wow&flutter? and one other thing; as far as I can see from the pictures you removed the plinth springs and used rigid spikes instead underneath. this way it became a non-suspended TT letting you use separate tonearm towers. do you get any feedback with a quick tap test to stand?

Thanks very much. for the stability of the speed is important. Remove the bearing and bake it in the oven to remove the old oil from the sintered pores.
the right oil do not use cheap sewing machine oil, for sintered bearings

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At 80 degrees in the oven, take a container where all the bearings fit in and fill up with new oil. this allows the sintered pores to absorb the new oil again.
my thorens runs stable after 1-2 minutes that's enough for me.

wow & flutter measurement can be saved with the thorens, since it is frequency-dependent on the mains,in germany the frequency hardly fluctuates at a stable 50 hz.
Online mesurements

Online-measurement of the mains frequency

Measurement of the utility frequency (line/grid frequency) of the european grid

www.mainsfrequency.com

the expansion of the springs brought stability to the reproduction, i only moved the level of the springs deeper under a slate with air suspension. it works better than the springs, everything is blocked above 3.5hz. you can jump from the table to the floor you don't hear any sound during playback. I have tested it
P.S sinteroil is expensive 1 litre arround 140€

 

[DasguteOhr]

addendum to your question thorens td124
the app measures wow and rpm meter, you start it on the turntable and speed is measured.
P.S cold start

 

[christensenleif@msn.com]

Melco with HAT regen psu from Jaap Pees, NL

 

[DasguteOhr]

Melco with HAT regen psu from Jaap Pees, NL
View attachment 86618

Amazing good, my thorens after perfect pitched with stroboskop
is just an old lady, i'm satisfied

 

[christensenleif@msn.com]

just now

 

[audioblazer]

Can u guys hear the vvv minor differences ?

 

[christensenleif@msn.com]

I certainly hear the Melco is more pitch correct/stable on piano and certain other instruments than any other player I´ve heard

 

[DasguteOhr]

That 0.2% wow probably won't bother you unless you hear a sustained piano note that takes a full revolution of the platter. Because the flutter, i.e. the fluctuation in speed at higher frequencies, is still very low. I can live with it just fine

 

[audioblazer]

What I meant is that , can u heard the differences in SQ between speed variation 0.01% & 0.02% ?

 

[DasguteOhr]

No.probably above 0.25% you will hear something if the opinion of the books or experts is correct. I can hear nothing,probably someone who plays the piano for a long time hears something
P.S
one must not forget that the machines with which the lp are cut are subject to the same problem

 

[christensenleif@msn.com]

I was told that the Neumann cutting lathe was about the Melco, or rather the other way around

 

[DasguteOhr]

I was told that the Neumann cutting lathe was about the Melco, or rather the other way around

Correct ,and add the human factor who operates the machine
read here interesting article about it.

Disc-cutting lathes

Stereo Lab recording lathes record lathes cutting lathes

pspatialaudio.com