turntables; high level anti-resonance----active (Herzan) platforms, Minus K, air bladder (Stacore) platforms, or others?

[Seismion]

Thanks, Ron!
I am happy to share a few more details with you.

Well, first of all, I believe Herzan isolators are great products. From their transmissibility curves, the performance is excellent. However, a few details like noise-floor and maximum control forces/displacements cannot be seen directly in these graphs.
This is where our isolators should have an edge over Accurion or Herzan: the control forces in our industrial versions (we have to check if audio applications need the same power) are up to 32 Newtons (vertically), while Herzan has 8 N, I believe. Also Herzan is strongly limited in the maximum disturbance. The maximum correction amplitude is 20 µm and above 20Hz it is 2.5 mm/sec (I just checked the TS-150 manual).
The higher control forces and amplitudes will significantly improve the isolation under 'difficult' conditions (building vibrations, operating doors, people moving or jumping around, ...) and also vibrations generated by the device itself (Wow or flutter, ...).

Of course our active control is not noise free But let's say by a careful choice of Op-amps, and especially by designing a sensor with a high sensitivity, we can achive a very promising result. Basically the system was designed from scratch with latest technology and components, and sensors, actuators, electronics and mechanical structure are designed and optimized by a multi-physics mathematical model.

The key difference might be in the price point. We are considering to sell it for probably less than 3.000 Euro (4.000 USD). Maybe some of you can share the typical prices for Herzan isolators? I believe they are closer to the 10.000 Euro?

 

[Tango]

Thanks, Ron!
I am happy to share a few more details with you.

Well, first of all, I believe Herzan isolators are great products. From their transmissibility curves, the performance is excellent. However, a few details like noise-floor and maximum control forces/displacements cannot be seen directly in these graphs.
This is where our isolators should have an edge over Accurion or Herzan: the control forces in our industrial versions (we have to check if audio applications need the same power) are up to 32 Newtons (vertically), while Herzan has 8 N, I believe. Also Herzan is strongly limited in the maximum disturbance. The maximum correction amplitude is 20 µm and above 20Hz it is 2.5 mm/sec (I just checked the TS-150 manual).
The higher control forces and amplitudes will significantly improve the isolation under 'difficult' conditions (building vibrations, operating doors, people moving or jumping around, ...) and also vibrations generated by the device itself (Wow or flutter, ...).

Of course our active control is not noise free But let's say by a careful choice of Op-amps, and especially by designing a sensor with a high sensitivity, we can achive a very promising result. Basically the system was designed from scratch with latest technology and components, and sensors, actuators, electronics and mechanical structure are designed and optimized by a multi-physics mathematical model.

The key difference might be in the price point. We are considering to sell it for probably less than 3.000 Euro (4.000 USD). Maybe some of you can share the typical prices for Herzan isolators? I believe they are closer to the 10.000 Euro?

You should look for Audio Exotic in Hong Kong to do a marketing for you. You only need your product to sound differently from competitors and they will take care of the rest for you in audio marketing. I think your profile pretty much fits their business model.

 

[rockitman]

For me, I have found the best use of active isolation platforms is for power supplies and other static (non-moving) hi fi components (DAC's, P.S.'s, phonostages, ect). I still use my compact HerzanTS-140 for a few power supplies (main pre ps, RTR PS and Allnic Phono tube PS. My AVI units that were integrated into a purpose built table for the AS2000 units have not been in the system since I determined they were harmful to the sound in "MY" TT set-up. I should probably try to sell them back to Herzan. Barely 50hrs of use.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Thanks, Ron!
I am happy to share a few more details with you.

Well, first of all, I believe Herzan isolators are great products. From their transmissibility curves, the performance is excellent. However, a few details like noise-floor and maximum control forces/displacements cannot be seen directly in these graphs.
This is where our isolators should have an edge over Accurion or Herzan: the control forces in our industrial versions (we have to check if audio applications need the same power) are up to 32 Newtons (vertically), while Herzan has 8 N, I believe. Also Herzan is strongly limited in the maximum disturbance. The maximum correction amplitude is 20 µm and above 20Hz it is 2.5 mm/sec (I just checked the TS-150 manual).
The higher control forces and amplitudes will significantly improve the isolation under 'difficult' conditions (building vibrations, operating doors, people moving or jumping around, ...) and also vibrations generated by the device itself (Wow or flutter, ...).

Of course our active control is not noise free But let's say by a careful choice of Op-amps, and especially by designing a sensor with a high sensitivity, we can achive a very promising result. Basically the system was designed from scratch with latest technology and components, and sensors, actuators, electronics and mechanical structure are designed and optimized by a multi-physics mathematical model.

The key difference might be in the price point. We are considering to sell it for probably less than 3.000 Euro (4.000 USD). Maybe some of you can share the typical prices for Herzan isolators? I believe they are closer to the 10.000 Euro?

i admit to not understanding the techie data above (i can only guess what they mean). a question; what type of power supplies do your products use? and are those noise-floor and maximum control forces related to power supply performance? maximum and minimum weight capacities?

and as far as leveling and load balance; how does that work? and how does that relate to performance?

 

[pcosta]

The price point is certainly better.

 

[Solypsa]

Dowloaded the brochure, and while the picture is not very 'high rez' for my taste the device looks fine although I cant really see the outer finish 'texture'. Purposeful and simple cosmetics. For some markets you may wish to prepare a gold plated version. Kidding...or am I

You mention overcoming the self noise / movement of the turtable- a great point. These days a turntable might weigh 30 lbs or 300 lbs .... something to consider in the audio market application.

message me if you want to discuss any user testing on west coast usa.

 

[Ron Resnick]

For me, I have found the best use of active isolation platforms is for power supplies and other static (non-moving) hi fi components (DAC's, P.S.'s, phonostages, ect). I still use my compact HerzanTS-140 for a few power supplies (main pre ps, RTR PS and Allnic Phono tube PS. My AVI units that were integrated into a purpose built table for the AS2000 units have not been in the system since I determined they were harmful to the sound in "MY" TT set-up. I should probably try to sell them back to Herzan. Barely 50hrs of use. View attachment 86053

Dear Christian,

It is wonderful to see you here again!

Do I see a couple of tube components sprinkled around the racks?

 

[Seismion]

i admit to not understanding the techie data above (i can only guess what they mean). a question; what type of power supplies do your products use? and are those noise-floor and maximum control forces related to power supply performance? maximum and minimum weight capacities?

and as far as leveling and load balance; how does that work? and how does that relate to performance?

Concerning the power supply, we use external ones similar to Accurion and other companies in this field.

However, the low noise floor mainly comes from our highly sensitive sensors, which consists of several piezoelectric elements and a seismic mass (hence our company name ). Using a differential arrangement, we can get rid of a lot of disturbances, since this is cancelled out. The higher sensitivity means we don't have to amplify the sensor signal that much (still it is amplified more that a factor 1000 to realize this strong isolation performance). Beside that, the choice if Op-amps in the analog control circuit is crucial of course.

One important difference to other isolators is the fact that our feedback is controlling the force amplitude, while the others typically control the actuator deflection. As long as the isolator is placed on a rigid foundation, the difference can be neglected. But once you use it on a rather soft base, then the active isolator will deform the base (each control force requires a counter force that is exerted into the base). Due to deformation of the base, the control force will not reach the intended value, and isolation performance is diminished. It can even destabilize the system, or the control loop needs to be adjusted to the environment.

We have made a test in our laboratory, and placed one of our isolators on top of the other. In a perfect world, the reduction in dB would be simply the sum of both, meaning 35 dB + 35 dB = 70 dB reduction. And really, we could show an overall reduction of 65-70 dB, which we have not seen in any other device out there!

I doubt that you can get the same results with competitor products, since
- the upper isolator is basically acting on a very soft foundation (which is the top of the lower isolator). So the above explained problems will occur if you are not controlling the force. If you control amplitude, then you just push away the lower isolator and not generate a lot forces
- the noise level of the isolator must be extremely low. Imagine that the upper isolator only receives about 2% of the floor vibrations, because of the first isolator. And still these tiny vibrations need to stand out of the noise floor.

Maximum control forces are not so much limited by the power supply. Power consumption is rather low in general. It is more a design parameter for the actuators, and slightly also a problem of heat generation. The heating of coils and electronics will somehow affect the sensitivity of the piezos, and building a thermal feedback loop, which needs to be considered.

Our standard version can carry a weight up to 60-65 kg. We have another version with double payload capacity, and increasing it further would not be a big problem.

Concerning levelling - our "Reactio" isolator does not have automatic levelling. There is the possibility of manual levelling using the feet, but in general it does not affect the isolation performance. We do have another model including automatic levelling with a precision of just 20 µm, which we sell for some customers in field of laser applications. But we believe this option is not necessary for audio field. We try to strip everything down to the essentially important things, and in that way being able to offer such a price for a performance typically not seen in this range.

However, we are planning to bring out a high-end version with automatic levelling, and (more important) even further improved isolation performance.

 

[Solypsa]

@Seismion sent you a pm

 

[Mike Lavigne]

ok, more basically do you use a SMPS or a LPS?

lots of gear does not like typical SMPS's......but they are all not created equal. and LPS's are also not all the same. i have found that the better the power supply the better the performance for these devices.

 

[rockitman]

Dear Christian,

It is wonderful to see you here again!

Do I see a couple of tube components sprinkled around the racks?

Hi Ron,
Not much has changed component wise other than the new room/house in 2019....still using Lamm LP1 sig and allnic H5000 for phono amplification. The room is my best component...

 

[DasguteOhr]

even my old thorens sounds clean with a stethoscope

you need much better measuring devices to localize the source of the noise or vibration. example nti vibration meter with uniaxial piezoelectric accelerometers.
I optimized my turntable and plinith with the help of such a device.

Vibration Meter I NTi Audio

 

[Seismion]

ok, more basically do you use a SMPS or a LPS?

lots of gear does not like typical SMPS's......but they are all not created equal. and LPS's are also not all the same. i have found that the better the power supply the better the performance for these devices.

Our industry-type isolator works with SMPS, and this has not been a problem yet. Probably the high-end audio equipment has other requirements. This is one reason to write in this forum, to get such valuable feedback.
It should not be a problem to develop an LPS for our isolator, at least as an option, since it would add to the costs.

 

[Seismion]

even my old thorens sounds clean with a stethoscope

you need much better measuring devices to localize the source of the noise or vibration. example nti vibration meter with uniaxial piezoelectric accelerometers.
I optimized my turntable and plinith with the help of such a device.

Vibration Meter I NTi Audio

For development and testing of our isolators, we have built our own measurement equipment. We use two pairs of piezoelectric sensors (one for horizontal, one for vertical direction), and place one pair on top of the isolator, and the other one directly beside the isolator on the ground. Our software calculates the frequency spectra of all sensors in real time. Attached is an exemplary measurement. The isolator just stands on a solid table, not artificial shaker excitation, just the building vibrations, maybe some cars outside on the street etc. You see the importance of low-frequency isolation, since the amplitudes are the biggest there. Please note that the overall vibrations are rather small (down to 10^-8 m/sec). This can hardly be measured by standard piezoelectric accelerometers. Therefore we use our own sensors with a large seismic mass.
If you relate the amplitudes of base sensor and top sensor, then you get the transmissibility in vertical and horizontal. Notice that for higher frequencies, the top sensor already reaches the noise floor. Therefore the transmissibility above 20 Hz should be in fact lower than shown there.
This is a short-term fft, therefore the curves are a bit "noisy", but you could simply extend the measurement period.

Of course, this measurement equipment can also be used to determine the best location to place the equipment (at least from the standpoint of vibration excitation). Or to optimize the turntable itself, like you mention.

 

[DasguteOhr]

For development and testing of our isolators, we have built our own measurement equipment. We use two pairs of piezoelectric sensors (one for horizontal, one for vertical direction), and place one pair on top of the isolator, and the other one directly beside the isolator on the ground. Our software calculates the frequency spectra of all sensors in real time. Attached is an exemplary measurement. The isolator just stands on a solid table, not artificial shaker excitation, just the building vibrations, maybe some cars outside on the street etc. You see the importance of low-frequency isolation, since the amplitudes are the biggest there. Please note that the overall vibrations are rather small (down to 10^-8 m/sec). This can hardly be measured by standard piezoelectric accelerometers. Therefore we use our own sensors with a large seismic mass.
If you relate the amplitudes of base sensor and top sensor, then you get the transmissibility in vertical and horizontal. Notice that for higher frequencies, the top sensor already reaches the noise floor. Therefore the transmissibility above 20 Hz should be in fact lower than shown there.
This is a short-term fft, therefore the curves are a bit "noisy", but you could simply extend the measurement period.

Of course, this measurement equipment can also be used to determine the best location to place the equipment (at least from the standpoint of vibration excitation). Or to optimize the turntable itself, like you mention.

thanks for the technical explanation, greetings from bad oeynhausen, not far away

 

[TLi]

Our industry-type isolator works with SMPS, and this has not been a problem yet. Probably the high-end audio equipment has other requirements. This is one reason to write in this forum, to get such valuable feedback.
It should not be a problem to develop an LPS for our isolator, at least as an option, since it would add to the costs.

The main reason why audiophiles don't like switching power supply is it pollutes the power grid. The performance of the isolator is not affected by the switching or linear power supply but a polluted power grid will affect the whole system and degrades the sound.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

The main reason why audiophiles don't like switching power supply is it pollutes the power grid. The performance of the isolator is not affected by the switching or linear power supply but a polluted power grid will affect the whole system and degrades the sound.

and more than a few phono stages pick up the noise from a normal industrial grade SMPS. some dacs too. any gain stage is vulnerable. reading an electron microscope might not be effected by a SMPS; but our ears are more sensitive to the finer degrees of performance. even power cords and resonance control on the power supply matters.

i have 5 Herzan based active units with quite involved Linear power supplies and everything matters.

 

[tima]

I optimized my turntable and plinith with the help of such a device.
Vibration Meter I NTi Audio

Could you please say the model and describe how you used it to optimize your turntable and plinth?

 

[DasguteOhr]

Could you please say the model and describe how you used it to optimize your turntable and plinth?

i dismantled and cleaned my thorens 124, then i placed it on the four bolts and attached a tonearm board.

nti placed the measuring head on the tonearm board and started the engine. I was shocked how many noises there are. so all the bearing was caught and replaced. new sinther bronze and teflon bearing for spindle, motor and idler wheel. that made about 11-12db less noise.
I was lucky that someone lent me the measuring device, it is extremely expensive.
then I started building the plinth, I tried out a number of materials. in the end the winner was multiplex birch 4 layers with 3 layers. roofing lead in between. in layers 2 and 3 chambers are milled into the birch multiplex. i filled it with sand and lead shot, then screwed the thorens firmly to the plinth without springs. that brought 4-5db less noise.
the last modifications were to remove the aluminum quick start plate and listen directly to the green cast plate with graphite mat. the tonearms no longer have to be mounted on the thorens td 124 but on separate tonearm bases. I am very, very satisfied with the result. analog playback finally has the quality I wanted. the whole construction took two years.
the air suspension tuned to 3.5 Hz is my best buy. i need 2.1 inch thick slate to get the mass to 104kg with turntable and tonearm bases.
all of this makes it a very good turntable, i don't need a new one anymore, it will be with me until the end of my life

 

[tima]

nti placed the measuring head on the tonearm board and started the engine. I was shocked how many noises there are. so all the bearing was caught and replaced. new sinther bronze and teflon bearing for spindle, motor and idler wheel. that made about 11-12db less noise.
I was lucky that someone lent me the measuring device, it is extremely expensive.

Thanks for the write-up and pictures about refurbishing your Thorens 124. Appears to be some intricacy with a complete dissasemble. Did you do the woodwork yourself? It looks nice.

Do you know which particular NTI meter you used?

I don't quite understand about the air suspension. Is that the footers under the slate base?