Turntable Speed: What matters?

PeterA

Well-Known Member
Dec 6, 2011
12,645
10,898
3,515
USA
This is one of the reasons I don't like this device, and measure speed in mine differently - basically, by first asserting test-instrument frequency-measurement accuracy using a test test CD's 1kHz tone, then adjusting tt speed until I get 1kHz output from the amps with a test LP. This still suffers from speed variations within the test LP itself (due to potential cutting lathe speed variations), and/or the tt's motor; therefore, I eventually adjust for a range from 999 to 1001Hz (sometimes readings are outside this range), and then revert back to the KAB strobe - and it appears that my speed as measured by the KAB is overall dead steady - apparently, the SDS speed controller does its job. Recently, I am relying more on the KAB for final speed adjustment than ever before, and it looks to me it's good enough.

The other reasons I don't like the Timeline are: 1) unknown mass, affecting speed in indeterminate ways when removed and replaced by one's own clamp/weight of different mass and rotational properties; 2) it takes a very long time to make a decision

I also simply use my KAB and am satisfied with the results. However, the Timeline does seem more precise when measuring speed accuracy, but I don't think I can hear a difference. Neither can tell you much about speed consistency between revolutions, though some may be able to interpret the quality of the laser dash and gleam some additional information. Both the TimeLine and KAB take time.

Regarding the issue of unknown mass: is this not also an issue when trying different after market record clamps and weights? Many people do experiment with these. I would think that a high torque DD motor could deal with this change in load better than could a belt drive system.
 

ack

VIP/Donor & WBF Founding Member
May 6, 2010
6,774
1,198
580
Boston, MA
Regarding the issue of unknown mass: is this not also an issue when trying different after market record clamps and weights? Many people do experiment with these.

The point is that you set speed based on something you then permanently remove and replace in the system - that is scientifically unacceptable, if not laughable. If one were to keep the Timeline on all the time, then it's fine. Sure people experiment with weights and all, but they are supposed to recheck speed as well.

EDIT: by "you" I don't refer to yourself, but anyone who uses this device and then removes it.
 
Last edited:

mep

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
9,481
17
0
Mep, if you want to see the results of my Denon, I suggest you spend a few minutes to watch the video. The link is easy to access in post #1.

You need to open the video to the public. Also, watching a blip come around every revolution and watch for where it hits on something in the background with no meaningful way to measure differences and put them into context is almost as exciting as watching my grass grow. How about meaningful conclusions that you came to from watching the blips go round and round? For instance:

Table 1 had the most stable speed and was accurate to .001%. Table 2 was more unstable with a degree of speed error of .5%. Table 3 was so unstable it tried to hold up a liquor store.
 

PeterA

Well-Known Member
Dec 6, 2011
12,645
10,898
3,515
USA
The point is that you set speed based on something you then permanently remove and replace in the system - that is scientifically unacceptable, if not laughable. If one were to keep the Timeline on all the time, then it's fine. Sure people experiment with weights and all, but they are supposed to recheck speed as well.

I see your point, and you make it well. Here is what I did: I set the speed using the KAB with my own SME record weight. Then I checked the speed with the TimeLine. The setting and speed were the same. I removed the TimeLine, rechecked with the KAB and setting and speed remained the same. I weighed the TimeLine and it is about 2 oz less than my SME record clamp. I did do the TimeLine test with an added 2 oz round weight tacked onto the top of it and the results did not change. I'm sure others may have different methods and results. Perhaps my table is not as susceptible to these weight differences.

I recheck the speed of my table about every two weeks with my KAB.
 

hvbias

Well-Known Member
Jun 22, 2012
578
38
940
New England area
I would consider the VPI motor to be very low torque. Anybody seen of one their motors outside of the fancy motor enclosure? They are dinky. I replaced the 600 RPM with the 300 RPM motor on my TNT and was shocked at the size of the motor when they sent it to me. They are mounted in large enclosures which gives the appearance of a giant motor (kind of like a padded bra gives the appearance of...), but once you get a peek inside it's a tiny motor. I believe this is common for many belt drive tables. As for the SP-10, you aren't going to stop the platter with your pinky. Before you can take your finger off of the power button, the SP-10 is already up to speed. Technics used to advertise that if you could mount 50 arms to the SP-10 and all of them were tracking at 15 grams, you still wouldn't affect the speed. You can imagine how one arm tracking at normal levels is not going to affect how the SP-10 turns. And none of this would matter if the SP-10 didn't sound great, but I think it does.

I should have been more clear, I meant the VPI Classic Direct motor.
 

PeterA

Well-Known Member
Dec 6, 2011
12,645
10,898
3,515
USA
You need to open the video to the public. Also, watching a blip come around every revolution and watch for where it hits on something in the background with no meaningful way to measure differences and put them into context is almost as exciting as watching my grass grow. How about meaningful conclusions that you came to from watching the blips go round and round? For instance:

Table 1 had the most stable speed and was accurate to .001%. Table 2 was more unstable with a degree of speed error of .5%. Table 3 was so unstable it tried to hold up a liquor store.

Thanks mep. That was only my second video ever uploaded to YouTube. I just learned how to reset it to public viewing. It should work now. Sorry.

Yes, I agree the video is boring, especially with no audio. A five minute video was necessary for the SME because it took that long to show some drift. I also wanted to roughly match the length of Halcro's video. You can see the problem with the Denon in about 10 seconds.

I don't know the degree of inaccuracy with the Denon. It is much slower than my SME table which is slow by 0.003% or 6/1000th of one rotation out of 173 rotations during the five minute test period. From looking at the Denon video, it may be more than one or two full rotations slow out of the total 175 or so rotations during roughly the same five minutes. I don't know what that is in % terms. It is easy to see, however, that the laser dash with the Denon (which has no speed adjustability) drifts to the left (ie. it's slow) about 1/4" at each rotation where it takes my SME five full minutes and 173 rotations for the laser dash to drift 1/2" to the left. That is a significant difference. I hope that clarifies it a bit.
 
Last edited:

ack

VIP/Donor & WBF Founding Member
May 6, 2010
6,774
1,198
580
Boston, MA
I see your point, and you make it well. Here is what I did: I set the speed using the KAB with my own SME record weight. Then I checked the speed with the TimeLine. The setting and speed were the same. I removed the TimeLine, rechecked with the KAB and setting and speed remained the same. I weighed the TimeLine and it is about 2 oz less than my SME record clamp. I did do the TimeLine test with an added 2 oz round weight tacked onto the top of it and the results did not change. I'm sure others may have different methods and results. Perhaps my table is not as susceptible to these weight differences.

I recheck the speed of my table about every two weeks with my KAB.

Right, if you made sure masses were equal before and after (and we take density uniformity within both devices as a given), then this is good enough. At the end of the day, you probably asserted the KAB is accurate enough, and I see that too; plus the KAB gives you a good visual cue of what happens within small time intervals, which as jazdoc implied, is very important (you don't want to see those numbers jumping back and forth, even the slightest).
 

Johnny Vinyl

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member
May 16, 2010
8,570
51
38
Calgary, AB
You need to open the video to the public. Also, watching a blip come around every revolution and watch for where it hits on something in the background with no meaningful way to measure differences and put them into context is almost as exciting as watching my grass grow. How about meaningful conclusions that you came to from watching the blips go round and round? For instance:

Table 1 had the most stable speed and was accurate to .001%. Table 2 was more unstable with a degree of speed error of .5%. Table 3 was so unstable it tried to hold up a liquor store.


Next time you measure how yours does get me a bottle of Bailey's while you're out!. :p
 

mep

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
9,481
17
0
Thanks mep. That was only my second video ever uploaded to YouTube. I just learned how to reset it to public viewing. It should work now. Sorry.

Yes, I agree the video is boring, especially with no audio. A five minute video was necessary for the SME because it took that long to show some drift. I also wanted to roughly match the length of Halcro's video. You can see the problem with the Denon in about 10 seconds.

I don't know the degree of inaccuracy with the Denon. It is much slower than my SME table which is slow by 0.003% or 6/1000th of one rotation out of 73 rotations during the five minute test period. From looking at the Denon video, it may be more than one or two full rotations slow out of the total 75 or so rotations during roughly the same five minutes. I don't know what that is in % terms. It is easy to see, however, that the laser dash with the Denon (which has no speed adjustability) drifts to the left (ie. it's slow) about 1/4" at each rotation where it takes my SME five full minutes and 73 rotations for the laser dash to drift 1/2" to the left. That is a significant difference. I hope that clarifies it a bit.

Peter, the Denon 45F wasn't close to Denon's best effort at building a DD table. However, it has internal speed control pots and it's quite possible that the table is old enough that things have drifted and the table is no longer stable. My point being that you may possibly be selling the Denon short of what it's truly capable of vice where it has settled to now over the many years.
 

microstrip

VIP/Donor
May 30, 2010
20,807
4,700
2,790
Portugal
Cogging exists, but it isn't always noticeable unless there is another turntable in the room that doesn't cog. It sounds a lot like digital jitter from a cheap CD player, if the turntable is a truly inferior one. More often, such comparisons are made with much better turntables, of course. By that, I mean A-B comparisons. In those cases, the apparent symptom is a very subtle smearing of the mids and highs that presents itself like a veil over the music. In a large symphonic work, background instruments are more likely to be diminished, where their presence is more prominent from a turntable that adequately addresses the issue. Also, dynamics are affected. Take away the better turntable, and the smearing turntable becomes acceptable again to most people after a few sides are played. We are talking about subtleties, after all. Still, it is an unacceptable condition for the guy who spent a lot of money on analog playback. Maybe he doesn't know it yet, as that seems to be the case most of the time.:D

In my experience, the turntables that cog most are those which do not regenerate power, but employ a feedback scheme that corrects often. Bad motors cog, too. High-end turntables aren't impervious to bad motor choices by their designers, unfortunately. I would surmise that motor selection is one of the more difficult aspects of turntable design, and you guys would be surprised at who in the industry takes the cheap path with the motor.

Mosin,

IMHO your definition of cogging is of little use for debating as the differences you refer can be due to many other problems in turntable design. Could you explain a little better your statement "the turntables that cog most are those which do not regenerate power, but employ a feedback scheme that corrects often." BTW I agree with you on the existence of very subtle effects due to motor drive and power supply in turntables, but my opinion is that we have proper and poor implementations of every type of drive, we can not say that one technique is better than the others.
 

PeterA

Well-Known Member
Dec 6, 2011
12,645
10,898
3,515
USA
I just added the link to the video of the Technics SP10 Mk2a in post #1. Results are superb. It is very difficult to tell if the TimeLine dash even moves during the course of the five minute video. It also was spot on with the KAB strobe. There is no speed adjustability with this MK2a. This table belongs to my friend and he has not had it refurbished yet. It is in an Albert Porter plinth and is isolated on a preloaded Vibraplane.
 

ack

VIP/Donor & WBF Founding Member
May 6, 2010
6,774
1,198
580
Boston, MA
I saw a slight drift toward the end, a bit slower
 

mep

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
9,481
17
0
I just added the link to the video of the Technics SP10 Mk2a in post #1. Results are superb. It is very difficult to tell if the TimeLine dash even moves during the course of the five minute video. It also was spot on with the KAB strobe. There is no speed adjustability with this MK2a. This table belongs to my friend and he has not had it refurbished yet. It is in an Albert Porter plinth and is isolated on a preloaded Vibraplane.

:)
 

morricab

Well-Known Member
Apr 25, 2014
9,484
5,042
1,228
Switzerland
Have the new DD tables all conquered the dreaded "cogging" that plagued most ( perhaps all) of the previous DD TT's? The "cogging" was something that I remember was clearly audible in all of the Technics TT's that I heard.

The best of the DD turntables from the late 70s and early 80s had already conquered the dreaded "cogging" issue. Especially the Kenwood L-07D and Yamaha GT-2000 used motors that would be VERY expensive today (they were very expensive then as well) and were by design zero cogging motors. That coupled with ever more sophisticated (meaning looser actually rather than tighter) control systems AND heavy platters (my Yamaha has a 6kg platter) they were well beyond the majority of belt drivers that came after.

About the only belt drive that I think has really done it right was the 3 motor Voyd/Audio Note Reference TT. The Funk Firm with the single motor and 2 pulley design also balances the forces correctly.

The funny thing is that even really expensive belt-drive TTs use a cheap motor that for sure cogs. THe belt helps to smooth but does not eliminate this problem. The earlly DDs did cog and also suffered from "hunting" of the PLL to lock in the speed but later designs fixed all these problems.

You could also do belt drive with a zero cogging motor but why?? I might lower the noise a bit but then you still have the belt as a flexible interface...
 

PeterA

Well-Known Member
Dec 6, 2011
12,645
10,898
3,515
USA
I thought I would revisit this old thread that I started a few years ago after since I have a new turntable that seems to be extremely speed accurate. It has a very high mass platter that floats on a cushion of air and has a "light" connection to the motor via a kevlar thread. I just made a short video showing the results of the laser dash readout from the Sutherland Timeline strobe device.

There are a few videos in the OP that show results from different turntables. The DD Denon has good results with this device. My old SME was also pretty good but the laser readout was taken from a short distance behind the turntable. The readout on the other side of the room was not as stable given the increased distance. The SME was also often just slightly fast or slightly slow and the quality of the laser line varied while music was playing indicating some speed variation over very short time intervals. I think groove friction resulted in the platter speeding up and slowing down.

The story is different with my new American Sound AS2000 turntable. The quality of the laser line is much more stable and consistent. It is also stable on the wall 15 feet across the room which the SME simply could not match, though I do not have a video of that. The stable and accurate speed result I think contributes to the naturalness of the sound from this turntable. Many have criticized this Sutherland Timeline device, but I have found that very few turntables show good consistent results when I have tested them with it. The frame rate of the iPhone does interfere with the laser dash a couple of times. You can see the laser dash above and behind the turntable at the beginning and then stretched out later in the video at the 15' distance.

I think this is a good result for a belt drive turntable. You can also see the RoadRunner tachometer read out on the motor controller case to three decimal places.

 

mtemur

Well-Known Member
Mar 26, 2019
1,406
1,346
245
48
I think this is a good result for a belt drive turntable.
the best wow and flutter results I measured all belong to belt drives, mostly the ones with high mass platters. IME direct drives measure a little worse than best belt drives. one strange thing is a couple of old Technics 1310 and 1200 measure better than a couple of highly praised Technics 1200G (the one with 4000usd price tag. not the regular 1200). I couldn’t get a chance to put my hands on SL-1000R but I highly doubt it will perform much better than 1200G. BTW unfortunately SME 30/12 is not among the well measured ones.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: bonzo75 and PeterA

Folsom

VIP/Donor
Oct 25, 2015
6,029
1,501
550
Eastern WA
I thought I would revisit this old thread that I started a few years ago after since I have a new turntable that seems to be extremely speed accurate. It has a very high mass platter that floats on a cushion of air and has a "light" connection to the motor via a kevlar thread. I just made a short video showing the results of the laser dash readout from the Sutherland Timeline strobe device.

There are a few videos in the OP that show results from different turntables. The DD Denon has good results with this device. My old SME was also pretty good but the laser readout was taken from a short distance behind the turntable. The readout on the other side of the room was not as stable given the increased distance. The SME was also often just slightly fast or slightly slow and the quality of the laser line varied while music was playing indicating some speed variation over very short time intervals. I think groove friction resulted in the platter speeding up and slowing down.

The story is different with my new American Sound AS2000 turntable. The quality of the laser line is much more stable and consistent. It is also stable on the wall 15 feet across the room which the SME simply could not match, though I do not have a video of that. The stable and accurate speed result I think contributes to the naturalness of the sound from this turntable. Many have criticized this Sutherland Timeline device, but I have found that very few turntables show good consistent results when I have tested them with it. The frame rate of the iPhone does interfere with the laser dash a couple of times. You can see the laser dash above and behind the turntable at the beginning and then stretched out later in the video at the 15' distance.

I think this is a good result for a belt drive turntable. You can also see the RoadRunner tachometer read out on the motor controller case to three decimal places.


It's not that I want to crash your party but if you want to do real measurements this thread is all about it. What they're doing tells you more than any tach or other simplistic measurement would ever tell you.
 

tima

Industry Expert
Mar 3, 2014
5,842
6,902
1,400
the Upper Midwest
It's not that I want to crash your party but if you want to do real measurements this thread is all about it. What they're doing tells you more than any tach or other simplistic measurement would ever tell you.

Folsom, I see that 56 page thread but don't have time to plow through its dense discussion. Could you give us a synopsis about the different measurement methods? Would you share your thoughts on what you think is the best - among what is available - test method?

---------------------------------

First let me say that the effect of stable accuracy is in the listening. That involves playing a record which introduces other possible factors. The frequency (time element) of the output signal is created by or a function of the turntable. The signal amplitude comes from the cartridge. People talk about groove friction or stylus drag as a factor. Record centricity is another.

Given that, I remain somewhat sceptical of using a test record to assess turntable accuracy inasmuch as the output is an aggregation of all the factors. For what is available to the home user, the test record method is the most commonly available. And that approach does give some insight - maybe a big picture viewpoint.

Still, it would be interesting to know a turntable's speed alone, apart from the other factors. That way you might be able to assess the impact of those other factors or see what is or is not influencing the output.

I propose that platter speed is best measured by directly reading the platter itself. That leads to discussion of ways of taking that measurement. I am not a physicist. It does seem reasonable that the more direct platter speed measurements (the more data) the more likely we can assess both accuracy and stability. Many say that stability is more important than accuracy. That may be true up to a point - which is why I talk in terms of stable accuracy.

It takes ~1.8 seconds to complete a revolution at 33? rpm. How many measurements should/can be taken in one revolution? Over the length of a revolution or an entire record, what is the percentage of deviation from 33? rpm? How far to the right of the decimal point should that measurement go out? There may be some point beyond which we can not hear the effect of stable accuracy.

Many people talk about wow and flutter. "I can't hear any pitch deviation so all this talk about turntable speed is irrelevant to me." I believe the influence of stable accuracy on what we hear goes well beyond aural detection of wow and flutter.
 

About us

  • What’s Best Forum is THE forum for high end audio, product reviews, advice and sharing experiences on the best of everything else. This is THE place where audiophiles and audio companies discuss vintage, contemporary and new audio products, music servers, music streamers, computer audio, digital-to-analog converters, turntables, phono stages, cartridges, reel-to-reel tape machines, speakers, headphones and tube and solid-state amplification. Founded in 2010 What’s Best Forum invites intelligent and courteous people of all interests and backgrounds to describe and discuss the best of everything. From beginners to life-long hobbyists to industry professionals, we enjoy learning about new things and meeting new people, and participating in spirited debates.

Quick Navigation

User Menu

Steve Williams
Site Founder | Site Owner | Administrator
Ron Resnick
Site Co-Owner | Administrator
Julian (The Fixer)
Website Build | Marketing Managersing