Truth and Tonality: can they co-exist?

[fas42]

Maybe someone could train themselves to hear them, like Amir has trained himself to hear jitter artifacts when listening at elevated volumes through reference headphone systems. Maybe.

So it seems we are still not absolutely certain that it is possible to achieve the truth, that there exist truly neutral components ...

Frank

 

[microstrip]

Yes. But try to tell that to the guy sitting in his chair, staring lovingly across the room at the gleaming faceplate of his $10k DAC. Or even the guy looking at his $1k investment in a Benchmark. A friend of mine exchanged emails in which one of the design engineers from Benchmark talked about the luxury the design team had; how they had over-engineered the DAC far beyond what was necessary to make it audibly transparent and that it was quite possible to make a DAC that would be just as transparent, for less. And I know he was right, because I've heard some of those DACs.
(...)

Tim

Not so easy...
Unhappily I did all it was possible to persuade myself - I measured my current CD player to show it measures the same as another DAC I also own costing less than one fifth, I borrowed a very expensive (15K) one to prove it also sounded the same, I borrowed friend's CD players ( top midfi japanese CD players ) but they all sounded different. I asked a non audiophile friend and he preferred my choice in my system, even when I deliberately tried to mistake him.

After all this, a later sin of perfection (ARC DAC8 usb DAC) also sounded different.

Anyway, for peace of mind, I accepted that all these DAC's represent the famous "truth", although I now do not know what is the meaning of "truth".

BTW, sometime ago I also bought a book to illuminate my search for the "truth" - "Sound Reproduction" by Floyd E. Toole. A fantastic, but merciless book for those who ask questions . Reading in progress ...

 

[fas42]

All in all, the Benchmark DAC1 HDR is damn close to a perfect piece of equipment.

I just had a look at Benchmark's website and was surprised to see an immediate weakness: the "custom-built motorized Alps potentiometer" which appears to be the only, analogue, volume control. I have yet to find a pot. that doesn't degrade the sound, so I am bemused to see the word "perfect" ...

Frank

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

So it seems we are still not absolutely certain that it is possible to achieve the truth, that there exist truly neutral components ...

Frank

There are no absolutes, Frank. Or I'm acknowledging that I don't know everything, could be wrong, might not hear things the way others do. Take your choice. Am I absolutely certain of what is the "truth?" Of course not. I'll leave that to priests and politicians. But while I've thought I heard differences between competent DACs, they've always become impossible to ID blind. When it gets that close, I stop worrying about it and listen to music. YMMV.

Tim

 

[Old Listener]

Your examples don't support your assertion

Alright Bill-This took some serious digging, but here are the words:

1.Gedde: First, my experience is the opposite of your. As I continued to improve my system I kept hearing more and more flaws in the recordings. Almost everyone who has bought my speakers has commented on the exact same thing.

I don't have many classical recordings (maybe 1% of my collection), but I would have to say almost all of them are "bad". I find recorded classical music lacking - especially when compared to live. I am not a big classical fan to begin with, but none of the few recordings that I have are worth listening to. Some customers have brought over some decent ones, so they must exist, I just don't have any.

2. Ethan: That is exactly my experience too. A while back someone asked what my favorite recordings are, and it was difficult for me to name one.

--Ethan

I asked you for a link because I found your assertion to be extraordinary and hard to believe. I wanted to see the remarks you cited in their full context. You did not supply a link.I found a message where MylesAstor inserted most of the same quote and asked Ethan whether he had said it. I did not find Ethern's reply or his original quote.

Some comments:

Neither Gedlee's quote or Ethan's quote supports what you asserted:

"They are the same people who posted publically that they "improved" their stereos to the point where all music sounded bad and now they can't listen to music anymore because their stereo is so "good." "

Gedlee mentioned that system improvements caused him to hear more flaws in recordings. He did not say that he can't listen to his system anymore as a result. Gedlee was clear in the second paragraph quote that he was talking about classical music in particular and that he had little classical music in his collection. He said "Some customers have brought over some decent ones, so they must exist, I just don't have any."

Ethan's statement that he could not pick a favorite does not mean that he finds all recodings to be unlistenable. If you had provided a link to the thread with his remark, I might understand what he meant.

Gedlee makes speakers. Ethan sells acoustical treatment products and has talked about recording music. They have posted lots of messages about music playback. Do you really believe that either one "can't listen to music anymore"?

Bill

 

[fas42]

Lets see, how many pots on one slice on a mixer board, three or four, times 30 slices, not one drop of music not touched by many pots, and now you are fussin about one mid grade pot! I do agree that Alps is not the purest way to control a signal though. But hearing it in a blind test, pot in circuit or not, naaah.

I know, it doesn't make sense from that point of view, it may have something to do with the implementation within mixer boards makes this sort of thing less of a problem, but over many years of playing with this stuff I have heard the effect over and over again. In fact, it was one of the earliest tweaks I played with, realising every time I played with the volume control that it temporarily, very temporarily, cleaned up the signal.

It is one of the sillinesses of this hobby that people obsess about using special silver solder, and the precise contruction details of a capacitor, only to have the signal pass through a pot, which is a rough sort of a resistor, with very so-so, even flakey, connections at one end. Funny game, this ...

Frank

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

It is one of the sillinesses of this hobby that people obsess about........only to have the signal pass through........

Fill in the blanks. The madness of the entire audiophile endeavor lies within.

Tim

 

[JackD201]

I know, it doesn't make sense from that point of view, it may have something to do with the implementation within mixer boards makes this sort of thing less of a problem, but over many years of playing with this stuff I have heard the effect over and over again. In fact, it was one of the earliest tweaks I played with, realising every time I played with the volume control that it temporarily, very temporarily, cleaned up the signal.

It is one of the sillinesses of this hobby that people obsess about using special silver solder, and the precise contruction details of a capacitor, only to have the signal pass through a pot, which is a rough sort of a resistor, with very so-so, even flakey, connections at one end. Funny game, this ...

Frank

So what are the alternative to pots? TVCs? digital bit shaving? optical? Hmmm. I'm sure I missed something.

Can't go listening to unity gain.

 

[tony ky ma]

I know, it doesn't make sense from that point of view, it may have something to do with the implementation within mixer boards makes this sort of thing less of a problem, but over many years of playing with this stuff I have heard the effect over and over again. In fact, it was one of the earliest tweaks I played with, realising every time I played with the volume control that it temporarily, very temporarily, cleaned up the signal.

It is one of the sillinesses of this hobby that people obsess about using special silver solder, and the precise contruction details of a capacitor, only to have the signal pass through a pot, which is a rough sort of a resistor, with very so-so, even flakey, connections at one end. Funny game, this ...

Frank

Frank-everyone has different level in the word "perfect" and do not know it again till reach to next level. in my experience the best type of volume control is steps with resistors in ladder type(.but still count on the quality of the contacts of the switch), will not see too many in an amp or other electronics except the real hi-end product, I did one switch by using sealed mercury switches, it works "perfect" but it can only in DIY project
tony ma

 

[Ethan Winer]

ultimately the only valid measured truth is that of the system taken as a whole: test CD in the transport, microphone measuring what is coming out of the speakers

Sure, though in most competent systems, 99 percent of the sound quality is the speakers and room, and the other 1 percent is tiny differences you can trace to the electronics.

--Ethan

 

[Ethan Winer]

I have yet to find a pot. that doesn't degrade the sound

Really? I have yet to find a pot that changes the audio even a little. Do you have any evidence showing degradation caused by a passive potentiometer? Not "just listen," but hard evidence in the form of skewed frequency response, added distortion or noise, etc.

--Ethan

 

[microstrip]

Sure, though in most competent systems, 99 percent of the sound quality is the speakers and room, and the other 1 percent is tiny differences you can trace to the electronics.

--Ethan

1% in the speakers and 98% in the room?

BTW, a competent system is one in which 99 percent of the sound quality is the speakers and room, and the other 1 percent is tiny differences you can trace to the electronics?

 

[mep]

Really? I have yet to find a pot that changes the audio even a little. Do you have any evidence showing degradation caused by a passive potentiometer? Not "just listen," but hard evidence in the form of skewed frequency response, added distortion or noise, etc.

--Ethan

Really? Cheap pots don’t tend to track evenly between channels, especially at lower levels causing channel imbalance and you can find plenty of measurements over the years taken in all kinds of audio mags which show that. Carbon wiper pots get noisy with age. There are lots of different audio pots on the market ranging from the very cheap to the very expensive and all points in between. Audio pots have been somewhat like mouse traps, all kinds of people have tried to make better ones that would add the least degradation to the signal. At what point in time do you think audio pots reached the point where they were/are perfect? Does it date back to the old carbon wiper pots or sometime after that? Do you think even today a $10 pot tracks perfectly between channels and there is no need for high quality pots built with very high tolerance low-noise resistors?

 

[fas42]

Do you have any evidence showing degradation caused by a passive potentiometer? Not "just listen," but hard evidence in the form of skewed frequency response, added distortion or noise, etc.

Yes, indeed there is. A fellow compatriot, George, has a product called the Lightspeed Attenuator, using LDRs, and there's a major thread on Audiogon about its behaviour. A key stage in the development of it was actually seeing the degradation on a 'scope of a high frequency signal running through a conventional pot, and seeing this "distortion" disappear if pressure was applied to the track contact.

And, sorry, there comes a point where "hard evidence" is meaningless. If I feel my car vibrating badly at speed, should I not get the tyres balanced until I have a readout from a measuring device saying that they are oscillating at such and such frequency? And again, one of my wakeup calls was hearing this effect, no-one told me it existed!

Frank

 

[fas42]

So what are the alternative to pots?

Obviously, see re. the Lightspeed. For myself, I have found digital volume, and silicon chips to do an excellent job. Of course, this is heresy; but even my current, bargain bin work horse has a cheap Japanese IC volume chip in it, and it doesn't get in the way. Once I became aware of it, the distortion artifacts of conventional volume devices were just too irritating to listen to for extended periods ...

Frank

 

[fas42]

in my experience the best type of volume control is steps with resistors in ladder type(.but still count on the quality of the contacts of the switch), will not see too many in an amp or other electronics except the real hi-end product, I did one switch by using sealed mercury switches, it works "perfect"

And there is yet another answer ...

Note particularly Tony's comment on the quality of the switch contacts! Get that wrong, and you just fall back into the soup again ...!

And, yes, agree about using that nasty, nasty mercury, so politically incorrect ...

Frank

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Really? I have yet to find a pot that changes the audio even a little. Do you have any evidence showing degradation caused by a passive potentiometer? Not "just listen," but hard evidence in the form of skewed frequency response, added distortion or noise, etc.

--Ethan

Yes, indeed there is. A fellow compatriot, George, has a product called the Lightspeed Attenuator, using LDRs, and there's a major thread on Audiogon about its behaviour. A key stage in the development of it was actually seeing the degradation on a 'scope of a high frequency signal running through a conventional pot, and seeing this "distortion" disappear if pressure was applied to the track contact.

And, sorry, there comes a point where "hard evidence" is meaningless. If I feel my car vibrating badly at speed, should I not get the tyres balanced until I have a readout from a measuring device saying that they are oscillating at such and such frequency? And again, one of my wakeup calls was hearing this effect, no-one told me it existed!

Frank

You may not need hard evidence to tell that something is shaking, Frank, but it sure would be helpful in determining if it is indeed your wheels (tires can vibrate, but not because of balance), or your struts, or a front end in need of alignment, or simply a rough bit of road and a leap to conclusions. And you have offered no hard evidence here, just hearsay from an audiophile discussion board.

Tim

 

[fas42]

it sure would be helpful in determining if it is indeed your wheels (tires can vibrate, but not because of balance), or your struts, or a front end in need of alignment, or simply a rough bit of road and a leap to conclusions

I have to say I did leap to a conclusion, silly me. I altered the volume, and the sound improved, then slowly got worse again. I didn't do anything for a period of time, sound stayed bad. I fiddled the control again, and instantly the sound improved. I tried this over a number of days and weeks, and every time I got the same result. I very stupidly then thought it must be a weakness in the mechanism of the volume pot, so effectively bypassed the need for such a pot. Of course I should have realised it could have been the vibration being transmitted to some components, or some unusual static discharge effect when I touched the remote button or the metal knob, or maybe it was the colour of my shirt causing an ionising effect ....

Yes, in hindsight now, I realise I have probably made a terrible mistake in ascribing the problem to the pot -- thanks for enlightening me ....

I know it's not going to make you happy, Tim, but here's a whole thread going into fine detail on the in's and out's of the Lightspeed. Also note the darTZeel pre-amp, which some people think is half reasonable , uses the same technique ...

www.diyaudio.com/forums/analog-line-level/80194-lightspeed-attenuator-new-passive-preamp.html

Frank

 

[microstrip]

A mechanical potentiometer with a sliding or rotating cursor will always be a compromised design - ideally the contact should be of the same material as the track and point-like, however for practical reasons this is not possible. Also, the electro-mechanical properties of the device can degrade with temperature, wear or dirty.

Many alternative technically better solutions are possible, such as switched attenuators, relay controlled attenuators, solid state attenuators ICs and optically controlled elements. Most of the time they will sound different because of the way they interact with the source and loading circuit. We should not forget that components are not ideal. No one per se is better than the others, although the optical one can pose some challenging problems of consistency.

BTW, most cheap potentiometers are really an horror - but do not forget the good ones, such as the Rolls-Royce of pots, the old Penny and Gilles. The feeling of manipulating their rotary potentiometers was unique.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

I have to say I did leap to a conclusion, silly me. I altered the volume, and the sound improved, then slowly got worse again. I didn't do anything for a period of time, sound stayed bad. I fiddled the control again, and instantly the sound improved. I tried this over a number of days and weeks, and every time I got the same result. I very stupidly then thought it must be a weakness in the mechanism of the volume pot, so effectively bypassed the need for such a pot. Of course I should have realised it could have been the vibration being transmitted to some components, or some unusual static discharge effect when I touched the remote button or the metal knob, or maybe it was the colour of my shirt causing an ionising effect ....

Yes, in hindsight now, I realise I have probably made a terrible mistake in ascribing the problem to the pot -- thanks for enlightening me ....

I know it's not going to make you happy, Tim, but here's a whole thread going into fine detail on the in's and out's of the Lightspeed. Also note the darTZeel pre-amp, which some people think is half reasonable , uses the same technique ...

www.diyaudio.com/forums/analog-line-level/80194-lightspeed-attenuator-new-passive-preamp.html

Frank

You misunderstand me, Frank. I didn't say you were wrong in your belief that potentiometers can impact audio quality, I just said you hadn't presented any evidence to support that position.

There are no analog pots in my systems, FWIW, but if I had one of decent quality and it was audibly improving the quality of the sound every time I moved the knob, I'd clean it.

Tim