Totaldac Reference D1

dallasjustice

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Subs are tricky. I've recently given up on trying to integrate subs into my system. For a few months, I had been working on a way to do it that I might be satisfied with, but it won't workout.

In the past, I've noticed that a sub can make a bass kick more impactful. The problem I've run into though is getting that extra bass out of the floor toms and the other higher toms as well. Basically, the toms can sound overdone and unrealistic to me. Mostly, this stuff depends more on the room and setup. I certainly think your speakers can get it done without subs. I just don't know if that's possible in every room. In my room, bass is very flat and articulate. The sidewalls are treated to deal with a very high Q SBIR. I have 6 modex plates in here so bass is pretty great. I may add more modex plates to the side walls. Ive found that you can add just as much dynamic range including bass with smart bass trapping.

Question: as a guy who used to a lot of tech directing on theater productions, I remember bass and drums a lot during rehearsals. As a drummer, do you find that well set up subs produce kick drums well? With my X1s I find the bass kick to the chest is only done well with my sub and I absolutely love it and always miss it when I hear sota systems at dealers whose full range speakers without subs just don't hit me in the chest with that quick blow of almost compression which you get even when the drummer is playing but not trying to kill it.
 

LL21

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Dec 26, 2010
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Subs are tricky. I've recently given up on trying to integrate subs into my system. For a few months, I had been working on a way to do it that I might be satisfied with, but it won't workout.

In the past, I've noticed that a sub can make a bass kick more impactful. The problem I've run into though is getting that extra bass out of the floor toms and the other higher toms as well. Basically, the toms can sound overdonoe and unrealistic to me. Mostly, this stuff depends more on the room and setup. I certainly think your speakers can get it done without subs. I just don't know if that's possible in every room. In my room, bass is very flat and articulate. The sidewalls are treated to deal with a very high Q SBIR. I have 6 modex plates in here so bass is pretty great. I may add more modex plates to the side walls. Ive found that you can add just as much dynamic range including bass with smart bass trapping.
Thanks! Good to know and will try to pay attention next time. I will say most X1/X2 owners I know use subs. And the bass drum is very satisfying when you get that quick pressurized thump. I will try to pay attention to the upper drums as well for a false bass depth.
 

ths61

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Oct 18, 2012
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DJ,

Thanks for the info. Those are some stout monoblocks. Do you like them better than your former Solution?

Please excuse my ignorance on the next question.

How do monoblock Stereo DACs work? The D1's are balanced stereo DACS. I see you are only using 1 channel from each stereo DAC.

How is the empty channel being used, or is it? I am trying to understand what is responsible for the improvements.

Thanks,
Tim
 

dallasjustice

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The mono d1 is the same number of resistors as a stereo d1 all run in parallel. Maybe Vincent could explain ths board better than me. So each box only carries the left or right signal. Each box receives the same AES signal from the d1 USB to AES converter. The master dac sends the undivided master clock frequency for either 44.1khz files or 48khz files to slave monodac. Each DAC has it's own shunt regulated linear psu in an external box. There are 3 psu in my setup. You can see the 3 golden lights on the bottom right of the HRS rack.

Vincent has tested this configuration and demonstrated that it has no measureable crosstalk intermodulation. The monodacs also have another 3db lower noise floor from the d1 dual stereo. There's no question its a big improvement. My DAC is not the first monoblock DACs Vincent has done. Vincent has worked through this version for a while. Its a great design, IMO.

DJ,

Thanks for the info. Those are some stout monoblocks. Do you like them better than your former Solution?

Please excuse my ignorance on the next question.

How do monoblock Stereo DACs work? The D1's are balanced stereo DACS. I see you are only using 1 channel from each stereo DAC.

How is the empty channel being used, or is it? I am trying to understand what is responsible for the improvements.

Thanks,
Tim
 

LL21

Well-Known Member
Dec 26, 2010
14,430
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Subs are tricky. I've recently given up on trying to integrate subs into my system. For a few months, I had been working on a way to do it that I might be satisfied with, but it won't workout.

In the past, I've noticed that a sub can make a bass kick more impactful. The problem I've run into though is getting that extra bass out of the floor toms and the other higher toms as well. Basically, the toms can sound overdone and unrealistic to me. Mostly, this stuff depends more on the room and setup. I certainly think your speakers can get it done without subs. I just don't know if that's possible in every room. In my room, bass is very flat and articulate. The sidewalls are treated to deal with a very high Q SBIR. I have 6 modex plates in here so bass is pretty great. I may add more modex plates to the side walls. Ive found that you can add just as much dynamic range including bass with smart bass trapping.

Oh by the way, i have been thinking more about your advice above...since i dont know the frequency range of the various drums...do you think i would have the problem with subs you describe if i have a very steep (48db) rolloff above 39-40hz?
 

dallasjustice

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I understand where you going. It makes sense to me. The problem is that there are no universally applicable answers. Like a good lawyer, my answer is: it depends. :)

Before you spend tremendous time and money, you have to create some high resolution room measurements using REW. You need a room drawing. You need a mic, adc and some patience. REW is free and the advise of folks like Nyal Mellor, Jeff Hedback or Ethan Weiner is almost free in comparison to the lost time expense and unnecessary gear expenditures.


Oh by the way, i have been thinking more about your advice above...since i dont know the frequency range of the various drums...do you think i would have the problem with subs you describe if i have a very steep (48db) rolloff above 39-40hz?
 

dallasjustice

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Lloyd,
I don't know whether you use a computer. If so, you might try some DSP. I use fab filter. You could do the same thing in jriver room correction tab. I find it a little easier to use fab filter though because of the cool graphical interface. This is a little shelf. It adds a small lift in the low frequencies which gives the music a little more dynamics without messing with the midrange or high frequencies. I am not saying DSP can replace a sub, but it can add some bass dynamics to your system.
fab filter.jpg
 
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LL21

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Thanks DallasJ! The Velodyne dd18 has their proprietary software which is available separately with their SMS-1. I use its eq function and phase response, etc...I have the sub cut off at 40hz using steep 48db filter...so it's dead quiet on much of a track but then fills in beautifully on some tracks ( to my ears). Response is pretty flat...though I have a 30hz bass node in one area of the room.

I was just wondering if the toms you mention deliver significant signal below 40hz where maybe the subs natural power is too much to be truly accurate for the Tom even if its kick drum is closer to real life impact.
 

ths61

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Oct 18, 2012
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...since i dont know the frequency range of the various drums...

HTH

 

Tubedoctor

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When i bought my cables at the Schnerzinger company they were using a total dac at their showroom. It was an incredible performance you could count even each single seat series of the audience with a with a musicality I never heard before. It was the first time for me thinking of buying a digital gear.
 

dallasjustice

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Ive heard good things about those cables. They told me they use a totaldac and some others to demo their gear. I haven't heard the totladac with tube output stage, but it looks pretty great too.
When i bought my cables at the Schnerzinger company they were using a total dac at their showroom. It was an incredible performance you could count even each single seat series of the audience with a with a musicality I never heard before. It was the first time for me thinking of buying a digital gear.
 

dallasjustice

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What is musical realism? How do I get there? I've tried over and over. I've spent thousands of dollars, and more importantly, countless hours pursuing this illusive goal. Am I there yet? I am about as close as I could ever imagine. Over a year ago, was the first time my experience actually exceeded my imagination. I've been very happy with my original TotalDac d1 for that time. For me, one year was the record for me to keep a DAC. Vincent then introduced me to this 3 box solution he called the d1 dual monobloc. I thought this DAC could be another inconceivable leap toward musical realism. It is.

One of the luxuries of owning a true NOS DAC is the ability to try out different digital filters on the server. I use HQplayer for this purpose. HQplayer has some excellent filters. In my case, they are limited to 24 bit 192khz. But they are nonetheless instructive because I can hear what a DAC sounds like with and without oversampling filters. In the case of the totaldac, these oversampling filters demonstrate how superior this NOS DAC really is with excellent recordings without oversampling filters. Of course, digital filters can help with really crappy recordings. Fortunately, I don't have many of those.

Anyone that's heard a TotalDac knows that the sound is not comparable to other Sigma Delta DACs. The texture, the tonal density and low level spatial resolution is always startling to the first-timer. I enjoy watching it happen. Last week, my 29 year old cousin and his friend visited from Zurich. They had never heard a real high end system before. I get a kick out of watching music evoke a strong emotional reaction like that. :D

Back to the original question. Musical realism requires accurate tonal reproduction. This is just a starting point. The totaldac d1 dual monoblocs make the qualities of my original totaldac d1 so much more obvious. The never heard before low noise floor; the speed; the high frequency delicacy and bass power. The speed is really the thing that stands out. Let's face it: Live unamplified music is FAST and DYNAMIC. The beginning and the end Simon Phillips' ride cymbal can't be known other than being there at the session. It's crisp and immediate, just like a live performance. The thunderous and spatially correct floor toms appear as Simon finishes off "Rainmaker" in my room 5 feet behind my left speaker. The monoblocs deliver low and mid bass instruments in places in my room I didn't know existed; behind my speakers; in the middle of my speakers and on and on.

Vincent has upgraded his cases in some important ways. He's added a massive copper base inside the DAC to control vibration. The metal is a nicer brushed aluminum and the top of the DAC is internally damped. Vincent has also improved EMF shielding inside the DAC. You can see that the FPGA is now covered by some kind of shield. Vincent has also improved the FIFO buffer so that switching sample rates is very smooth.

No, I haven't compared this DAC directly to the laundry list of DACs you read about elsewhere on the internet. All I can say is that I've had some great DACs in my room: Playback Designs MPD-5 via USB-x and the BMC DAC1 are the 2 most prominent that come to mind. They are great DACs. All I can say is that I doubt there's a DAC that could substantially outperform the TotalDac D1 monoblocs. Maybe you prefer the one bit DSD DACs. There's no doubt that the likes of Playback Designs and EMM labs will offer something very different. I don't argue with people that prefer those fine DACs over the TotalDac. It's a preference after all. All I can say is that I don't miss streaming native DSD, as good as it was.
 
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totaldac

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Elberoth

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