Time to go active?

Solypsa

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Jun 7, 2017
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Stilla spec sheet states an incredible 14hz lf. Any idea at what spl and if in 2pi space or otherwise? ( iow with or without room gain ).

14hz is a lot to ask from 2x7" mid woofers !
 

gleeds

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May 29, 2018
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I have a pair permanently set up in my Newport Beach, CA, listening room. I would happily pick you up at SNA/John Wayne International Airport, a 10-minute drive from my place. It would be an easy one-day trip, or stay a few days and enjoy the Newport Coast as its spectacular this time of year! Feel free to DM me to discuss.
 

gleeds

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May 29, 2018
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Stilla spec sheet states an incredible 14hz lf. Any idea at what spl and if in 2pi space or otherwise? ( iow with or without room gain ).

14hz is a lot to ask from 2x7" mid woofers !
Solypsa, it is indeed!

I purposely quoted a 20hz in-room response to accommodate a variety of rooms, listening conditions, and music types. The ARPEC system does work with room gain, and indeed in a large room at sustained volume one can reach dynamic compression and thereby reach the thermal limit of the transducer's voice coil.

I have not measured my in-room response but have been impressed with how deep these speakers play without overload or loss of texture in the low bass. This is my moderately sized, moderately damped room. I will inquire with Ivo Spiridans, AEquo's Chief Engineer, and get a more fulsome response. Thanks for asking about this rather remarkable feat from two small-displacement drivers in a compact enclosure:)
Stilla spec sheet states an incredible 14hz lf. Any idea at what spl and if in 2pi space or otherwise? ( iow with or without room gain ).

14hz is a lot to ask from 2x7" mid woofers !
 

Brad Lunde

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Sep 18, 2020
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www.lonemountainaudio.com
Yes, you're probably correct, but that doesn't make ATC studio speakers the best choice in the home. I used to have ATC Active 50s and found them less enjoyable for listening in the home than the KEF Reference 107s I bought them to replace and very much less enjoyable than the speakers I bought to replace the ATCs.

The trouble is that studio monitors need to possess one over-riding factor - accuracy - and this is so the engineer can clearly hear what's wrong in the recording so he can attempt to fix it. By contract, in the home and listening to the recording AFTER the engineer has done his work as best he can, we want the sound to excite us and provide the goosebump factor that we as listeners are looking for. The engineer is not looking for this - he wants to hear the imperfections. That's the last thing we are looking to hear.

I replaced my ATCs with Avantgarde horn speakers, the model that had recently won Stereophile’s Speaker of the Year award. What a difference! The sound was so much more lifelike and exciting, despite no doubt being a little less accurate than the ATCs
Hear Here
Can't argue much with your post here (using your perspective). Accuracy is indeed the name of the game in recording and generally accuracy is rewarded when it comes to translation (the ability for the mix to sound good on other speakers). However, I do have to add that the "accuracy camp" does not leave these goosebump events to others, it finds them as well. Most of the [great] engineers I know can create goosebumps from this accuracy and realism that is sounds sonically otherworldly. AS though the piano is right there, or the vocal is in the room. Hearing Fleetwood Mac Dreams or The Chain on an active set of 50s with a proper preamp and source gives people goose bumps every time I do it at a trade show. There are many similar examples of this. Some DO find accuracy is the holy grail they seek-although your post certainly explains that isn't the goal of everyone.

Brad
 
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Hear Here

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Hear Here
Can't argue much with your post here (using your perspective). Accuracy is indeed the name of the game in recording and generally accuracy is rewarded when it comes to translation (the ability for the mix to sound good on other speakers). However, I do have to add that the "accuracy camp" does not leave these goosebump events to others, it finds them as well. Most of the [great] engineers I know can create goosebumps from this accuracy and realism that is sounds sonically otherworldly. AS though the piano is right there, or the vocal is in the room. Hearing Fleetwood Mac Dreams or The Chain on an active set of 50s with a proper preamp and source gives people goose bumps every time I do it at a trade show. There are many similar examples of this. Some DO find accuracy is the holy grail they seek-although your post certainly explains that isn't the goal of everyone.

Brad
I suppose my opinion on domestic speakers not having to be 100% accurate to generate the goosebumps I look to experience is rather similar to those who feel that valve amps give a greater life-like sound than solid state. Valve amps are not dead accurate and a degree of acceptable harmonic distortion can add significantly to the enjoyment factor in the same way than some non-100% accurate speakers such as the best horns can add to this enjoyment factor. I prefer to measure sound quality with my ears than with an oscilloscope! Peter
 

Brad Lunde

Member
Sep 18, 2020
55
65
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Las Vegas
www.lonemountainaudio.com
I suppose my opinion on domestic speakers not having to be 100% accurate to generate the goosebumps I look to experience is rather similar to those who feel that valve amps give a greater life-like sound than solid state. Valve amps are not dead accurate and a degree of acceptable harmonic distortion can add significantly to the enjoyment factor in the same way than some non-100% accurate speakers such as the best horns can add to this enjoyment factor. I prefer to measure sound quality with my ears than with an oscilloscope! Peter
Totally understand that and its okay!

Perhaps it what you get used to: while no mix engineer in pro is measuring for distortion (especially with ancient oscilloscopes), they become very accustomed to hearing things as they are (what it sounds like on the other side of the glass). Most musicians gauge how "good" the monitoring system is based on how close it comes to his or her real guitar, the real piano, etc. After all, they spent a lot of time, money and effort on getting an instrument with a certain sound quality. They absolutely HATE anyone- especially the engineer whom they have hired to work for them- to change anything about that sound.

You see concerts where those super accomplished guitar players with many different guitars? Its not for looks! They are seeking a very particular sound for each song and only one guitar fits it perfectly by their ear. Like audiophiles have one particular cartridge that "suits" their tonearm. An engineer or producer changing that sound is sacrilege!

I know the engineer who did all the high rez stuff recording for HIromi said she always checked to be sure ATC 150s where in the control room before the recording started. She said it was the only one that sounded like her piano and she wanted everyone to hear it exactly the way it was.

So its different approach- to Hiromi, Tom Petty, etc only the ATC sounds correct. To a fan, it might be something else entirely. For me, Ive been listening to ATC for so long that its the only one that gives me the sound I seek. When I hear that Michael Jackson Thriller on a big pair of ATC and hear all that extra stuff most people never hear, that's what gives me gooosebumps!

Heres' someone who agrees with this idea (I hope this link is permitted) ATC SCM50 Passive/Active Loudspeaker (soundstageultra.com)

Brad
 
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Ivo

Member
Time to go active? Good question!

Lengthy and not written by a native English-speaker, but perhaps (still) interesting for those who consider active (or hybrid/active) speakers:

Part 1

On going hybrid or even full active (lets not wait to read conclusions at the end of this post): this seems indeed a very nice option for your needs. And you don't have to go for 'emotionless' or 'non-listening-room-fit studio workhorses' nor should you settle for digital conversion issues or 'DSP intervention synthetics'. A high end speaker has a different room in mind that a high-end studio monitor does, and many of us in high-end can confirm that DSP is a 'dangerous' thing to add to our level of top-class reproduction (as many on this forum would tend to agree with, I reckon).

Which brings me to Stilla hybrid or full active loudspeakers, mentioned by Gleeds, our USA distributor, which has all the resolution and accuracy, but does so in a effortless and deeply involving natural way with amazing depth, width, height, layering and holographic imaging. Accuracy ensured by extremely fast driver motors, coupled to very forgiving high-damping-tech membrane materials. A special EHDL-lens/waveguide for dispersion, around the tweet and positioned super-close to the mid almost as if it were a single concentric unit, all placed in a thick compressed-natural-wool covered super-slim and rounded-off-edged baffle, with perfect-phase-aligned filters between the two drivers, are a quick summon of factors that all have a strong part, in full synergy, towards amazing staging/imaging. Key is that sound-dispersion is close-to ideal for the high end listening room, which is typically something very different than a studio(!).

And yes, also the full active Stilla has a purely analogue signal path and also here we find the same passive crossover filter that keeps mid and tweet moving in-phase not just in the crossover band, but from 200-20khz (in attachment proof of concept is provided, the overall acoustic phase change from up to down is simple inherent to the distance measurements travelling to the mic: the alignment of the two drivers/lines its what matters). Hence, 'walk-about' (crazy big sweet spot, or better, area) wall to wall sound-staging is the result with far-beyond-wall depth and width. Even if speakers are placed almost ridiculously far apart, a palpable middle-stage and high-definition centre image performance will stay steady in place (see picture of DAE 2022 attached). And with a full depth imaging, that will never seize to impress. Perhaps you would say it's only in my interest or professional passion to say so (see my signature/affiliation) but, you actually don't have to take my word for it as reviews, non-commercial audio-clubs and random show/demo-visitors will confirm these statements. Or see how far we put the speakers apart, actually also for making a clear point, at last 2022 DAE with nothing but positive remarks on the sound-stage. Just google some and ask around before arriving at your own picture (or see summaries from reviews/clubs ).

Then on Stilla's bass: this is indeed something else entirely, and it removes all the typical drawbacks of compact speakers, digital enhanced speakers, separate active subwoofers etc. It is built around our proprietary ARPEC unit: the Analogue Room-size & Placement Extension Controller. It listens in to the original signal without changing it (going to the passive mid/high section) and adds the needed current by implementing 2x250W Ncore units in a fully analogue -and instant- signal path. The system empowers indeed only just two moderately sized 7 inch units, but these can move air as if they were much much bigger, in fact far bigger than anyone could even begin to suspect from their inch-count. The system is speaker-individual adjustable with two simple step-less dials: one for room size (anywhere from XXS to XXL) and one for placement towards walls (anywhere from total open plains to hard-in-corner positioning of the speaker). Bass will always be coherent to the rest, as acoustic phase is perfected with no DSP applied (fact: any digital signal processor has some latency due to computing time, which will then in its output never be fully time coherent with the fully passive section!). In case of the full active version, we simply just added another single 100W unit per speaker to power the easy to drive 90db@8ohm mid/high section, without using active filtering.

As has been mentioned, if you turn the dials open it can typically measure in-room as deep as -3db at 14hz, depending on the room gain to be matched, or actually over-matched in this case. The ARPEC is not meant for such specs or measurements (which do still prove a real point on their own as for impressive ultimate capabilities), but to be dialled in in such ways it reaches as deep as you want, with full natural extension to frequencies as normally would only be achieved with fat closed box ceiling-high speakers with giant subwoofer drivers (including sea-deep 20hz notes). And in such typical settings it can still play music (or action-movies if you will) very loud, and dynamically unconstraint too.

Something we are never too shy to prove in all possible situations, including when in our own and very large auditorium, or at any over 95m2/100- square feet rooms such as at shows (eg. at X-fi/DAE) or audio-clubs, playing tracks such as from this Timothy Seelig album , suprising listeners with the speaker's effortless and deep reach as if being in the Meyerson, directly facing the massive fisk organ pipes, while placing her very very far in front (and a touch to the right) of you and at the right realistic size and within representative all-out-venue-dimensions. The same goes for when proving super coherent slam, and equal attention to drums accompanied by all double bass notes arriving at the same natural velocity and time in tracks such as eg. Beyond of Avishai Cohen might fully demonstrate. Full high-dynamic-range-recorded classic-symphonies, those nice live rock-concerts from any band of any era, Pink-Floyd's studio-recording of dark side of the moon, or the latest Chris Liebing album or live techno set, or productions of Hans Zimmer and Boris Blank alike, all arrive to listeners equally impressive and unconstrained.

To do so, the speaker has actually a very lengthy port to its disposal, stretching over the entire backside of the internal speaker, ending up in a horn loaded front output, tuned at 20hz to help the two woofers in the lowest octave, but, ARPEC makes it behave as if a closed box design, including the much-desired associated low group delay. So small but capable dual woofers and extended closed box roll off = deep, snappy, taut slam. And when listening at whisper volumes to that special angel of your liking, this 'uncompromised and airy full-bodyness' remains, while emotional intimacy and legitimacy now prevail to the fullest and most touching sincerity. And surprisingly well-so on both old and new recordings. At Aequo Audio, we see the Stilla simply as a 'getting-there' machine, whatever the playback level or music genre of choice.

On a more technical note: the woofers themselves were made as a result to our efforts achieving as much linear stroke as possible, using newly developed surrounds, suspension-spiders and highly optimised motors, all cable of very, very large linear and uncompromising extension. 'Linear' is applicable here to all aspects: compression, latency and distortion free, in order to respectively have same stand-up quality from whisper to full loudness, always perfectly high consistent definition and complexity, and always with the highest genuine palpable accuracy. Each unit has in fact fully- Klippel -proved linearity of this sort/definition 25mm peak to peak (!). That's a lot of air to move in ways how you like it best, even if we would not consider the fact that the port can almost double its potential in the lowest octave... Something unheard of for this size of driver, and uniquely non-compromised also to that whisper intimacy factor spoken about earlier.
 

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Ivo

Member
Part Two:

We do also pure passive designs (a new purely passive loudspeaker called Adamantis is soon to be released), but it has to be said how ARPEC equipped hybrids/actives makes live so much easier (setting up systems and rooms), and often better, when having those two dials to our disposal. As for going full active, we also see that even within Stilla sales, more and more customers choose for the full active path. They see how only a modest price differences saves massive expense on power amps, and rather assign those funds to better sources/dac/pre instead. It has been said my more and more people up to now, how Stilla also make the best of even top-tier (and more expensive) electronics, even those far out of the Stilla's price-league. Its fast but neutral and very top-tier (soundstage, imaging) qualities shine at every step owners make by hooking up better and better gear. Not that its needed, as Stilla can also be surprisingly mild in its response (and resulting joy) to lesser gear, recordings and rooms alike, but it's telling none the less. For example: Matej from Mono&Sterero for example agreed that, when playing on a full-out MSB SELECT system, the need of the pre-amp added to the two-stack SELECT DAC proved being worthy as a day-and-night sound difference. Equally so, as when speaking of how clearly different gain settings on the M500 monoblocs stood out, or how soundstage and imaging were hardly ever so extensively-nice to compare in full if switching from MSB to Lamm 1.2 hybrid power amps. The same goes for differences we encountered by trying different components back-to-back on shows with our partners such as Taiko audio, trying aqua formula vs Metric vs Nagra HD vs TotalDac vs Vermeer Two and/or other top-level DACS and PREs. Or even if comparing the Taiko Extreme on one show to a Antipodes K50 as used on another (for the Taiko unit was not available).

If I may speak my mind, I think we might be on the verge of entering an era where such active-speaker-type decisions will start to be commonly accepted under what's-best-connoisseurs as being a smart value towards ultimate quality-value over system-money. But we need the right high-end and not mid-fi or even studio active loudspeakers for enabling it to be so to begin with. I am sorry if the above sounds too much as an ARPEC/Stilla-advertisement to do right to its real-world-performance, but I included some pics/measurements to explain and back the stated facts up. In the end, what matters is: hearing is believing. Don't let previous encounters with studio-actives or DSP-actives fool you, especially if you have some more conservative thoughts on speaker-size vs sound and passive vs active. Our full active comes without PRE or DAC, as we want to keep our fellow audiophiles to be free in their system-optimisation on this front. And sure, our passive speakers can compete with our fully analogue hybrids or actives if the room and placement approaches perfect conditions. But when is that really so? Still I expect our company will sell far more passive Adamantis speakers than we will sell our hybrid/active models in the next year or so, and this will be ongoing until we reach the (what I see as unequivocally inevitable) new era of embracing active benefits, if not only for analogue hybrids that still allow all our typical audiophile playgrounds to stay fully intact, including the choice of power amps.

As of today, a good, and I think even unbiased, answer to your thread's original question is: YES, its time to go active, especially on the bass, but perhaps only if we speak of purely analogue and (high-end-)listening-room-focused designs, with full integrated and 100% coherent active bass, allowing simple intuitive phase-correct corrections without unwanted artefacts. And still a hard: NO to A/D/A conversion losses, DSP-latencies, unnatural sound processing interventions/ digital interference etc. Choose a separate DAC/PRE (also for these might be not as durable in their performance achievements, when still vastly better DA/DA/DD technology seems to arrive too soon as one after the other, as when compared to the durability of the speaker tech; you don't want to change speakers for being actually only in need of new DAC). Furthermore and firmly: YES also to full active (if taking into account the same remarks), especially when wanting a more minimal or integrated system-approach, or even simply for the sheer (and often best) system quality value vs system costs. Still, the full active speaker in question must then however be designed to do at least everything as good as its passive counterparts when comparing systems apple to apple and pear to pear, without shortcuts(-comings), or even excel over them in all aspects (see also our Octagon philosophy). It also should not be some brand's addition to its portfolio because they heard actives gain market-share. Stilla is likely the 'perfect example' that proves this point. If you find another speaker that ticks these boxes, I am still happy for you, as I am still celebrating the fact you have encountered a leap into the future's what's-best paradigm. In anyway or any outcome of your decisions to be made, I Hope this post helps, or is of any use to you in the process.

(P.S. We also do computing of specific room simulations with dedicated room/layout/system/placement-advice for end-customers to see how Stilla, with ARPEC, can be best used in cases like yours. Please contact forum-member Gleeds for further possibilities to US customers (or seek assistance though our website or even directly by PM to me (quick response time not garantueed), for any non US-based customers seeking appropriate service/sales-channels).
 

Robh3606

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Aug 24, 2010
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Stilla spec sheet states an incredible 14hz lf. Any idea at what spl and if in 2pi space or otherwise? ( iow with or without room gain ).

14hz is a lot to ask from 2x7" mid woofers !


At what 50Db??

Rob :)
 

gleeds

Industry Expert
May 29, 2018
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Hi Rob,

Thanks for the smile:)
14 hz is indeed a lot to ask of two relatively small drivers in a compact enclosure. I'll let Ivo speak on the SPL question, but for now I can assure everyone the specification is not BS spec to be considered for use at background output levels.

I use the Stilla's in a moderately sized room of 15 by 22 feet, with an opening to an equally large room adjacent to the main listening space. On my recordings with concentrated 20-25 hertz bass content I can play the Stilla's without perceptible doubling or distortion at levels most audiophiles would consider the upper limit.

The Stilla was designed to provide truly full-range performance in a compact package for more moderately sized living spaces, although it can be comfortably used in bigger ones depending on desired music preferences and SPL requirements etc.

As for the active versus passive debate I expect the discussion to carry on. I see real world advantages to using active speakers to ease critical room placement and acoustic treatment requirements, allowing audiophiles a higher level of performance, especially in typical domestic environment.
 

Ivo

Member
Rob,

Gleeds could not have said it any better: what matters is indeed this: Stilla can do SPL levels, at the max of musical comfort, with flat out reach to 20hz.

I feel we are perhaps getting a bit sidelined here of what is relevant to musical reproduction and listening levels, but still, as for specs (as Gleeds says, we never fake measurements/specs), we can reproduce at any time the following actual/no-BS measurements of Stilla's outputs at this indeed ridiculously low frequencies (no not at 50db, any output at such levels would be totally un-relevant).

-The sensitivity of Stilla is ~90db in room at 8 ohms nominal. As of our measurement bass performance log, we were able to maintain/average (KLIPPEL-)linearity in terms of x-max one-way per single woofer of 11,5mm (being 92mm peak to peak as the total amount of air it can move per pair), without considering the port (!). With port included, logging several pairs of Stilla we reached at 14hz an average of 90,674db . And It's very consistently proved to be time after time very close to this number, all the time. While many manufacturers/brands would round of in their benefit, we didn't: Stilla is actually capable of a-3db point at its rated 90db output of 13,09hz, not 14hz. But we specified it at 14hz to stay conservative.

If you listen at concert levels of what your ears could maximum handle, something like 105db (that's really loud, and often the maximum legal level at concerts), you would be able to do so with a -3db point at around 30hz. And that's comprable with many of the largest, best and most expensive speakers out there. We see most uses tuning it to their specific room-gain to reach around -3db at 25hz. Very cabaple settings for movies, organ music etc. Below 20hz is out of our scope when lstening music, but it is telling of what's possible.

In he end, each user/listener can choose how low it goes in combination with your room. Its all analogue though.
 

Robh3606

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Aug 24, 2010
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Rob,

Gleeds could not have said it any better: what matters is indeed this: Stilla can do SPL levels, at the max of musical comfort, with flat out reach to 20hz.

-The sensitivity of Stilla is ~90db in room at 8 ohms nominal. As of our measurement bass performance log, we were able to maintain/average (KLIPPEL-)linearity in terms of x-max one-way per single woofer of 11,5mm (being 92mm peak to peak as the total amount of air it can move per pair), without considering the port (!). With port included, logging several pairs of Stilla we reached at 14hz an average of 90,674db . And It's very consistently proved to be time after time very close to this number, all the time. While many manufacturers/brands would round of in their benefit, we didn't: Stilla is actually capable of a-3db point at its rated 90db output of 13,09hz, not 14hz. But we specified it at 14hz to stay conservative.

If you listen at concert levels of what your ears could maximum handle, something like 105db (that's really loud, and often the maximum legal level at concerts), you would be able to do so with a -3db point at around 30hz. And that's comprable with many of the largest, best and most expensive speakers out there. We see most uses tuning it to their specific room-gain to reach around -3db at 25hz. Very cabaple settings for movies, organ music etc. Below 20hz is out of our scope when lstening music, but it is telling of what's possible.

In he end, each user/listener can choose how low it goes in combination with your room. Its all analogue though.
Hello Ivo

OK the lowest frequency the system can produce changes with SPL level because of EQ, power and X max. That make sense however I don't understand why the graph that was posted shows output levels far in excess of the 105dB -3dB @ 30 Hz. That graph starts at 110dB which would be an issue based on your explanation. Certainly not 1 watt 1 meter the lowest level @ 30Hz is 125 dB going up to over 140 at the top??

Rob :)
 

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Ivo

Member
Hi Rob,

These are closed mic recordings in an anechoic room (of our local tech-university) that is not typically made for this kind of low-f frequencies (they use this room mainly for high-freq tech projects such as for ASML and other related companies in our region). Translating far/near calibrations were not included, so we don't advertise these numbers as specs. Its still a nice illustration of ARPEC doing its thing.

As example, the US government can provide jet fighter db outputs that can vary from 100-145db depending on type of measurement.
But of course: I can answer any question you like, including db levels on 1m/2m/4m based on later measurements (that we now all do in-house).

So:
A pair of Ensis can do around 115db depending on middle settings and (and avarage room size, around 50 sq meters), and I mean continuous music of the most demanding type (such as electronic/minimal techno). For Stilla this is around 110db, still 5db more than than is advisable for your hearing organs. In our current reference set we use a pair of monoblocks that keep in class A for the first 25 watts, staying at a nice and decent ~95db and max 100db at peaks. We almost never go beyond this, also when playing some really loud metal etc on levels that our ears say its enough after a few tracks. See also below to get your bearings. More important: it has to always sound effortless. You want linearity to big air movements. Its all in the driver technology (made specifically for synergy with ARPEC) :)
hearing_loud_db.PNG
 

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