Thorens New TT

[Zeotrope]

Is it possible to run the tonearm wire directly into the phono stage? Not loving the XLR connection, especially at this price point. And what is the price?

Seismion is a no brainer: I have several and the improvement was tremendous. At about $5k, it should be under as many components as possible.

 

[Another Johnson]

The present state of the art for TT/Arm design is focused on visuals and the emotional response they invoke. Mild homage is paid to the importance of sonic performance, but most of the modern high end designs are driven by visual impact and exclusivity. That’s my $.02.

 

[Kjetil]

^What causes your lack of love for XLR, @Zeotrope ? It’s used for microphone and they are electrically similar to pickup cartridges.

 

[Zeotrope]

^What causes your lack of love for XLR, @Zeotrope ? It’s used for microphone and they are electrically similar to pickup cartridges.

It’s not that, it’s just better to go straight into the phono preamp with a continuous cable from the cartridge.

 

[TLi]

The boss of Thorens, Gunter Kurten, said initial response for New Refernce is very good. He has a few orders for it already.

 

[Another Johnson]

The boss of Thorens, Gunter Kurten, said initial response for New Refernce is very good. He has a few orders for it alread.

I think that there will be several orders. Thorens has a wonderful history, and many aficionados, including me.

 

[Zeotrope]

Pricing strategy is very curious indeed: The original Reference cost $20K in today’s dollars ($5000 USD in 1980).
Thorens adds a Seismion base (~$5k), and charges nearly 10X more for the re-issue. Wow.

The Nagra TT is almost sold out of its 70 unit run, but that’s nearly $100k less expensive than the Thorens.
When you get into the $200k+ range, you’re selling Very few units a year…

 

[TLi]

I was told the retail price is 220,000 euro including the two tonearms and phono cables

 

[Another Johnson]

When you get into the $200k+ range, you’re selling Very few units a year…

That’s a part of the attraction. Matt Weisfeld once said in an interview that once you’d bought in at the $6k level, everything higher was audio jewelry.

I don’t necessarily agree with this, but obviously you don’t actually NEED a six figure TT. It’s a great WANT though.

 

[Zeotrope]

That’s a part of the attraction. Matt Weisfeld once said in an interview that once you’d bought in at the $6k level, everything higher was audio jewelry.

I don’t necessarily agree with this, but obviously you don’t actually NEED a six figure TT. It’s a great WANT though.

Right, I don’t disagree.
And I am “guilty” of buying into this as well with my Nagra TT.
Pricing strategy is always very interesting to me from a business standpoint. Thorens has a complete line of TTs of course, so their “statement piece” must be priced high. Sadly, many will discount its performance outright it if it isn’t one of the most expensive tables.
I would love to hear how it compares to the AF1, OMA K3, and SAT!

 

[Another Johnson]

Right, I don’t disagree.
And I am “guilty” of buying into this as well with my Nagra TT.
Pricing strategy is always very interesting to me from a business standpoint. Thorens has a complete line of TTs of course, so their “statement piece” must be priced high. Sadly, many will discount its performance outright it if it isn’t one of the most expensive tables.
I would love to hear how it compares to the AF1, OMA K3, and SAT!

Thorens are masters. I expect that it will compete well.

Nagra was my first exposure to ultra quality tape recording equipment. We used their portable tape decks for field recordings back in the early ‘70s. Nagra and Bruel og Kjaer were the go to companies for top lab grade equipment.

 

[Seismion]

Pricing strategy is very curious indeed: The original Reference cost $20K in today’s dollars ($5000 USD in 1980).
Thorens adds a Seismion base (~$5k), and charges nearly 10X more for the re-issue. Wow.

The Nagra TT is almost sold out of its 70 unit run, but that’s nearly $100k less expensive than the Thorens.
When you get into the $200k+ range, you’re selling Very few units a year…

The active vibration isolation unit from Seismion, which is built into the Thorens New Reference, is not the same as our Seismion Reactio. The general principle is the same, but there are several modifications/improvements:
- higher isolation performance
- adjusted to a higher payload range
- adaptive leveling with precision of approx. 20 µm
- further improved electronics with minimal noise in the audible frequency range.

 

[Zeotrope]

No doubt; but my point was directed towards Thorens and their pricing strategy. I just don’t understand the justification of pricing this new Reference at 10X the price of the original Reference. I’ll be looking for a second table and currently own a Nagra TT; but this pricing is crazy.
I think manufacturers are preferring to recoup their R&D costs and earn their target profit from fewer units, assuming that the higher the price the higher the perceived performance.

 

[Seismion]

Totally got your point. I just wanted to add a few technical details about what is included in the 'isolation package', since it might not be obvious from what was published up to now.

 

[Zeotrope]

It would be great to see this updated isolation platform as a standalone product that can be used under any turntable.

 

[thekong]

Well, while I don’t like the seemingly crazy pricing of current top TTs, I also don’t quite understand the rationale behind comparing pricing of the two top Thorens models which are marketed decades apart! Basically, different products, different technologies, different markets all together!

As a reference, if I remember correctly, the original Thorens Reference was the world’s most expensive TT when it was introduced, and the new Thorens Reference far from it!

 

[Zeotrope]

It does seem like Thorens priced it relative to the other top tables, rather than from a "cost +" standpoint. From their own marketing: it was priced 'in the middle between the OMA K3 and the Nagra Reference'. This tells me that pricing was set based on the market, not based on their cost plus their target profit.

 

[TLi]

Ultra high end turntables don’t sell in any volume, probably less than a hundred in the entire cycle.

The pricing has to reflect on that.

 

[Zeotrope]

Lower selling price = more units sold, and the volume growth is exponential as the price drops.

I'm guilty of this as well, as an owner of the Nagra TT; but it's sad that we've come to the point where a component cannot be one of the best, unless it has a price tag in the high 6-figures.

The original Thorens Reference cost about $20k in today's dollars.

 

[PeterA]

Ultra high end turntables don’t sell in any volume, probably less than a hundred in the entire cycle.

The pricing has to reflect on that.

Yes. There were 14 American Sound AS2000s made. DDK has two, the other twelve belong to customers. The design is based foremost on sound quality, but another major consideration was extreme reliability and ease of in the field owner serviceability and long term maintenance should it ever be needed. Simplicity in the service of sonics and reliability.