The truth about vinyl.vinyl vs digital

[microstrip]

That is a silly argument Al, vinyl is vinyl, even when it is digitally sourced. Yes most young users don't buy it for the improved sound but probably for the bragging rights and cool factor. Just like most digital users don't buy it for the sound, but the convenience and portability. Most of the first generation CD's where sourced from analog master tape, so are many of the early rock and jazz recordings. They don't count as digital when you play them on your CD player ?

You are forgetting the real essence of digital - it captures anything it touches. But yes, most of the time people misleadingly use vinyl as a synonymous for analog, we can't be sure what we are discussing now.

The real advantage of analog sourced CD's was just bypassing the whole vinyl process.

 

[Phillyb]

The majority of the big recording plants get their data through the net - we must remember that current vinyl is a victory of digital. Most of the plants do not even own a tape machine - and if they owned it they would not be able to align it. And some of the few who have it have cutters with digital delay lines - only purist audiophile labels seem to have machines with analog tape loops to preview the signal feeding the mechanism that determines the size and shape of the groove to be cut .

The cost of manufacturing of packed LP's (12" gatefold 180g) is now under $2 for small quantities. They are pressed in automated factories - digital data enters one side, boxes with the LPs leave a few days later.

Considering statistics the more relevant number is that vinyl sales represented around 5% of the revenue of the industry in 2020 and showed an increase of 30% in 2020 (RIAA data). Comparing to CD sales is meaningless, as CD is a vanishing format.

IMHO reasons for the vinyl rise are mostly sociologic and behavioral, and have little relation with sound quality. But yes, music is the real winner in this movement.

Vinyl dies when boomers pass on, there will not be enough sales to be worth the cost. Digital streaming is King. That was a progression from CD. CDs will be around longer than many think, you have to look worldwide in sales and not just in the USA. Buyers don't want to own music anymore, that want to listen to it and then be done with it, also goes for movies which are why DVD sale is way down also (even though streaming does not look as good). Today it is about convenience, not the sound quality, and 99.5% of people don't care or for that matter own even a basic decent audio system.

As my son says why do you want to listen to a whole album when 1/2 the songs you don't like, you be better off streaming it and listen to only the tracks you like, he said most of the CD's you own you don't have the time to listen to them so they sit, he's right, same when I had vinyl, you could not get to them all in a year if you even played them every day for 2 years. I guess we like collecting, but I must say I no longer buy just to buy, it's got to be something I really want because I own all the music I wanted and that I can enjoy in my lifetime if I never brought a disc again.

 

[thedudeabides]

Sure, except that the discussion very much has evolved from earlier discussions on the topic.

I'm glad you enjoy the nuances and evolution from previous discussions. For me, who is not into vinyl, I personally find it extremely repetitive. But that's fine. And I'm very glad that the "A" arrows are not being shot at by the "D" arrows and vice versa.

 

[Lagonda]

You are forgetting the real essence of digital - it captures anything it touches. But yes, most of the time people misleadingly use vinyl as a synonymous for analog, we can't be sure what we are discussing now.

The real advantage of analog sourced CD's was just bypassing the whole vinyl process.

And avoiding the terrible digital recording, mixing and mastering of that first digital period. Listen to some of the early all digital recordings out of Nashville, popular country where some of the first to embrace the convenience of digital recording technology, now you don't even have a decent mastertape to run trough modern, much better AD and DA converters.

 

[Phillyb]

"In my collection mastering and sound was the golden age of the '50s into the early 60's when producers tried to reproduce the sound as close as possible to what they heard in the studio when all musicians played in the same room, unlike today's music production."

One could argue that many artists today would not be able make it if they had to record the way they did back in the golden era for the simple reason that they just are not good enough. There was no hiding anything back then. Recording studios exposed all. You either had it or you did not. Talent was real in the Golden age. Thats not say that there are no more talented people today. There are, they are just not what people want.

Today artists and that is about all lay tracks down in the digital form and send them to the record company where the producer's job is to mix them together to make a song, then a singer does his track and you have a finished recording and they sound that way technical good players but with no feelings and that is due to play just notes and not being in the same room working head arrangements and trying a song several different ways. Which is why if you hear outtakes of artist you will find something 30-40 takes and everyone and some point you can hear the final recording of a song coming together. If they did direct to disc recordings then they worked out all the arrangements beforehand because once the recording process started there was no stopping and going back to start over, you played right through. Now that took talent.

 

[bonzo75]

For me, who is not into vinyl, I personally find it extremely repetitive. But that's fine. A

It is repetitive. Some of us play a game of AtoD bingo while these threads are on. If Al, Micro, Lagonda, Ron or any of the regular posters posts the same thing, we drink one shot. If Ron deletes on schedule, two shots.

 

[Lagonda]

It is repetitive. Some of us play a game of AtoD bingo while these threads are on. If Al, Micro, Lagonda, Ron or any of the regular posters posts the same thing, we drink one shot. If Ron deletes on schedule, two shots.

Time to get drunk again ! And don't forget to empty the bottle when Micro mentions F.Toole !

 

[PeterA]

Time to get drunk again ! And don't forget to empty the bottle when Micro mentions F.Toole !

Just spilt my tea. That was funny.

 

[assessor43]

Today artists and that is about all lay tracks down in the digital form and send them to the record company where the producer's job is to mix them together to make a song, then a singer does his track and you have a finished recording and they sound that way technical good players but with no feelings and that is due to play just notes and not being in the same room working head arrangements and trying a song several different ways. Which is why if you hear outtakes of artist you will find something 30-40 takes and everyone and some point you can hear the final recording of a song coming together. If they did direct to disc recordings then they worked out all the arrangements beforehand because once the recording process started there was no stopping and going back to start over, you played right through. Now that took talent.

That is true. direct to disc was a one timer. Still, nowadays there are many tricks they can employ now to change the sound. back in the day, one had to know how hard to hit the drums, positioning of the musicians etc. There was no cleaning it up like there is now regardless of how many takes. still, that one take that was chosen had to be good.

 

[jeff1225]

While it's great news for independent artists and music nerds alike, the rise in vinyl sales is dwarfed by streaming service revenue. Physical sales make up only 9% of 2020 revenue while streaming services take up a whopping 83%. Digital downloads bring up the rear with only 6% of revenue.Mar 1, 2021

But are we not talking about and to audiophiles/audio nerds?

 

[jeff1225]

Vinyl dies when boomers pass on, there will not be enough sales to be worth the cost. Digital streaming is King. That was a progression from CD. CDs will be around longer than many think, you have to look worldwide in sales and not just in the USA. Buyers don't want to own music anymore, that want to listen to it and then be done with it, also goes for movies which are why DVD sale is way down also (even though streaming does not look as good). Today it is about convenience, not the sound quality, and 99.5% of people don't care or for that matter own even a basic decent audio system.

As my son says why do you want to listen to a whole album when 1/2 the songs you don't like, you be better off streaming it and listen to only the tracks you like, he said most of the CD's you own you don't have the time to listen to them so they sit, he's right, same when I had vinyl, you could not get to them all in a year if you even played them every day for 2 years. I guess we like collecting, but I must say I no longer buy just to buy, it's got to be something I really want because I own all the music I wanted and that I can enjoy in my lifetime if I never brought a disc again.

You are incorrect. Go to record store day, huge lines of millennials buying records. The age bracket of 25-35 is more likely to buy records than the boomers:

Vinyl buyers in the U.S. by age 2019 | Statista

Consumers in the age bracket 25 to 34 were just as likely as those aged 55 and older to buy vinyl records in the United States, with 21 percent of those in both age groups having purchased at least one record in 2019.

www.statista.com

 

[Al M.]

That is a silly argument Al, vinyl is vinyl, even when it is digitally sourced. Yes most young users don't buy it for the improved sound but probably for the bragging rights and cool factor. Just like most digital users don't buy it for the sound, but the convenience and portability. Most of the first generation CD's where sourced from analog master tape, so are many of the early rock and jazz recordings. They don't count as digital when you play them on your CD player ?

What Francisco (microstrip) said.

And no, it's not a silly argument, Milan. For us older audiophiles vinyl is about the pure analog experience, which means analog all the way through. Even as a digital-only guy I am just not interested when a friend wants to play a digitally sourced LP on his vinyl rig for me. Just give me the digital file then.

Pretending that today's vinyl resurgence is about real "analog" may be for the feel-good factor, but it does not correspond to reality.

Once digital is in the chain, it is digital, period. So yes, analog tape sourced CDs are digital as well.

To all that one might counter that nobody actually listens to digital, since what comes out of a DAC are analog waveforms. Which of course is true as well.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Why do you think it the future? Record pressing plants are back up and running, sales are outpacing CD’s, record stores have popped up everywhere and there are huge lines for record store day.

It looks like the future generations have embraced vinyl.

+1

The only question is whether the high-end analog sound quality use of vinyl will survive.

 

[PeterA]

What Francisco (microstrip) said.

And no, it's not a silly argument, Milan. For us older audiophiles vinyl is about the pure analog experience, which means analog all the way through. Even as a digital-only guy I am just not interested when a friend wants to play a digitally sourced LP on his vinyl rig for me. Just give me the digital file then.

Pretending that today's vinyl resurgence is about real "analog" may be for the feel-good factor, but it does not correspond to reality.

Once digital is in the chain, it is digital, period. So yes, analog tape sourced CDs are digital as well.

To all that one might counter that nobody actually listens to digital, since what comes out of a DAC are analog waveforms. Which of course is true as well.

Al, if once digital is in the chain, then it is defacto digital, and once analog is in the chain but digital too, then it is digital. So to be considered a digital sound, it can be a mix of analog and digital, but to be considered an analog sound, it must be analog from beginning to end? Is that what you are saying?

If that is the case, then perhaps it is because the nature of digital overrides other considerations and one hears the "digital" signature, regardless of how much of it is in the chain of the recording. For something to sound like analog, it can not have been touched by digital. This seems consistent with my experience, though in moments of real weakness, I might likely be fooled.

I think we all preferred MadFloyd's digital file of Kind of Blue last week in his system over the vinyl reissue, not because of anything inherent in the digital, but rather because we did not like the mastering of the recent UHQR release. I think we all preferred the early pressing on vinyl as sounding the best that day. This speaks to the earlier points about the mastering and recording being primary.

 

[BlueFox]

When I had turntables in the 70s and early 80s I lost track of how many records I ruined by trying to play only songs I liked, and accidentally dropping the tone arm onto the record. Now I have playlists of various genres, and artists that I either listen to sequentially or on random shuffle.

 

[Al M.]

Al, if once digital is in the chain, then it is defect digital, and once analog is in the chain but digital too, then it is digital.

Peter, I don't understand your comment about "defect digital".

So to be considered a digital sound, it can be a mix of analog and digital, but to be considered an analog sound, it must be analog from beginning to end? Is that what you are saying?

Yes. Even though I would not call it "analog sound" or "digital sound", but the means of reproduction.

If that is the case, then perhaps it is because the nature of digital overrides other considerations and one hears the "digital" signature, regardless of how much of it is in the chain of the recording. For something to sound like analog, it can not have been touched by digital. This seems consistent with my experience, though in moments of real weakness, I might likely be fooled.

That is not what I was saying.

I'm not sure what you mean with a "digital" signature. Maybe your "moments of weakness" aren't that, but the realization that it's all just the sound of music.

For me it is about the principle of reproduction. Analog needs to be truly analog, all the way through. Analog waveforms all the way.

I think we all preferred MadFloyd's digital file of Kind of Blue last week in his system over the vinyl reissue, not because of anything inherent in the digital, but rather because we did not like the mastering of the recent UHQR release. I think we all preferred the early pressing on vinyl as sounding the best that day. This speaks to the earlier points about the mastering and recording being primary.

Agreed.

 

[PeterA]

Peter, I don't understand your comment about "defect digital".



Yes. Even though I would not call it "analog sound" or "digital sound", but the means of reproduction.



That is not what I was saying.

I'm not sure what you mean with a "digital" signature. Maybe your "moments of weakness" aren't that, but the realization that it's all just the sound of music.

For me it is about the principle of reproduction. Analog needs to be truly analog, all the way through. Analog waveforms all the way.



Agreed.

Sorry I meant “de facto” digital. As soon as the chain is touched by digital it seems you’re saying it has to be considered digital.

 

[Al M.]

Sorry I meant “de facto” digital.

Understood now, thanks.

As soon as the chain is touched by digital it seems you’re saying it has to be considered digital.

Indeed.

 

[Ron Resnick]

I think certainly that once music is converted from analog to digital at any stage it is immutably digital thereafter.

 

[Lagonda]

What Francisco (microstrip) said.

And no, it's not a silly argument, Milan. For us older audiophiles vinyl is about the pure analog experience, which means analog all the way through. Even as a digital-only guy I am just not interested when a friend wants to play a digitally sourced LP on his vinyl rig for me. Just give me the digital file then.

Pretending that today's vinyl resurgence is about real "analog" may be for the feel-good factor, but it does not correspond to reality.

Once digital is in the chain, it is digital, period. So yes, analog tape sourced CDs are digital as well.

To all that one might counter that nobody actually listens to digital, since what comes out of a DAC are analog waveforms. Which of course is true as well.

When comparing CD's and vinyl made from digitally recorded and mastered files, lets not forget that the files used for vinyl are often high-resolution files, not 16/44 red book. I have plenty of vinyl that sounds better than the CD does, not as good as all analog, but really good. I prefer the vinyl issue of Allison Krauss Live to both the SACD and the CD version, the original recording is made in DSD.